Print Page | Close Window

Overtaking Boat Relevancy ?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12784
Printed Date: 13 Dec 17 at 6:59pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Overtaking Boat Relevancy ?
Posted By: silversailor
Subject: Overtaking Boat Relevancy ?
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 10:03pm
All,

I'm a sailor returning after a brief sojourn of about 20 years. This is my first post, so please be gentle !

I've been crewing in a cruiser racing series for the past couple of months, which I've been enjoying immensely. I'm looking for some advice on an incident in our last race. 

We were reaching towards the mark, but still well outside the 2 boat zone when we managed to establish an overlap on another boat to windward. We were both on the same port tack and were sailing a direct line to the mark (no luffing up).

There was no collision, but we got very close (within about a yard at one stage). We were both insisting our right of way. We had a fairly friendly but passionate discussion about it in the bar afterwards.

We believed that we had right of way as we were the boat to leeward and so had the right of way, the other boat stated that the overtaking boat (us) has to stay clear of the boat being overtaken. I couldn't remember ever hearing that one before.

Since it's been about 20 years since I last read the sail racing rules, I've just reread them and can still find nothing about the overtaking boat, however managed to find it in the Collision Regs.

Reading the Colregs there's a lot of contradiction between them and the Sailing Rules, especially around approaching a mark etc.

As I understand it, we race under the Racing Rules of Sailing

http://www.sailing.org/documents/racingrules/

and so assume that these take precedent over the colregs, but is this correct ?

Can somebody please explain:

1) Who was in the right ?
2) Which code takes precedent ?

Thanks.

 



Replies:
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 10:17pm
As I understand it (and I'm in a not dissimilar situation to you having raced seriously for many years but currently just returning after a lay off), the 'overtaking boat' thing is long gone from the RRS. until the 'zone' (which is now three boat lengths) the windward boat must keep clear (but the ROW boat must give them 'room to keep clear'). And, yes, the RRS do take precedence over COLREGS for boats that are racing.

edited in the cold light of day to correct some 'Yoda' like grammar Wink


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 10:26pm
Thanks Sam,

We were well outside the three boat zone when this happened, and by the time we reached it we were several boat lengths ahead.

I take it from your reply that you agree we were in the right ?


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 11:04pm
Part 2 of the The racing rules of sailing (the bit that deals with rights of boats) apply between two boats racing (they don't have to be in the same race). 
From the book

PART 2

WHEN BOATS MEET

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 14 when the incident resulted in injury or serious damage, or rule 24.1.

When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules. If the sailing instructions so state, the rules of Part 2 are replaced by the right-of-way rules of the IRPCAS or by government right-of-way rules. 


"Overtaking boat keeps clear" is rule 13 of IRPCS. 

IRPCAS can't deal with mark rounding (hence RRS).

A diagram of your situation would help.





Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 11:06pm
The Colregs are irrelevant between two boats racing, so you can forget about them. Its not a question of taking precedence: by entering a race under RRS you have agreed that RRS will apply *instead* of Colregs between boats racing, even boats in different races.

As far as your incident is concerned,

Section A rules are the basics.
Before the boats were overlapped RRS12 applied, astern must keep clear of ahead. Once the boats were overlapped RRS11 applied and windward keeps clear of leeward.
*but* Section B rules may limit a ROW boats actions
in this case
RRS 15 says that if you acquire ROW you must initially give the other boat room to keep clear and
RRS17 says that if you gain an overlap from behind and to leeward you may not sail above your proper course. Proper course can be a complicated subject, but in cruiser racing it will normally mean that you must not point higher than straight at the next mark.

So yes, you had right of way, but there were limitations on what you could do with your right of way.


Posted By: silversailor
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 11:48pm
Thanks all. That's kind of what I thought about the Colregs, but one of their crew was so insistent about the overtaking boat keeping clear that I thought it may have some virtue.

We were about 200 meters from the mark when we established an overlap. At the time they were about 20 meters off our port beam and they weren't restricted in their ability to maneuver to windward in any way. The incident happened as we converged moving towards the mark. 

We were also both sailing a straight course to the mark.


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 8:07am
as i understand it

if overlap is established from at least 2 boat lengths to leeward then you can luff windward 

if its established within 2 boat lengths to leeward then you need to sail your proper course


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 9:01am
If you establish an overlap to leeward from astern within 2 boat lengths, you cannot sail above your proper course. You are welcome to sail below it. The other boat cannot sail below her proper course, but can sail above. In effect, overtaking boat keep clear has been subsumed into other rules, and if it were in there, would cause rules to conflict.

This is assuming you are both on the same tack.

If your proper course differs from the other boat's, then it changes things somewhat on the water.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Rupert

In effect, overtaking boat keep clear has been subsumed into other rules,


Rupert, I don't think its helpful to say that. There is nothing resembling an overtaking boat keeps clear rule in the RRS, and when you consider situations like two boats alongside alternately speeding up and slowing down on waves, its fairly clear that there cannot be one. A boat to leeward has right of way, no matter how it comes to be there, even though in some circumstances there are restrictions on where it can sail. The whole thread demonstrates the problems that arise when people have concepts in their head that are entirely absent from RRS.


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Rupert

If you establish an overlap to leeward from astern within 2 boat lengths, you cannot sail above your proper course.

Not quite accurate: 17 states: 
 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
 



If the gap opens to more than 2bl, leeward can then luff above her (leeward's) proper course. 


Originally posted by Rupert

You are welcome to sail below it. The other boat cannot sail below her proper course, but can sail above.

Again, not quite, I'm afraid. The old 17.2 (Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she gybes.) was removed from the rules in 2009. 

Assuming boats on the same tack: 
Now, before the boats are overlapped, RRS 12 (clear ahead/clear astern) applies. 
When the boats become overlapped, 15 applies. 
Once the overlap is established, it's RRS 11 and 16.1


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Rupert

In effect, overtaking boat keep clear has been subsumed into other rules,


Rupert, I don't think its helpful to say that. There is nothing resembling an overtaking boat keeps clear rule in the RRS, and when you consider situations like two boats alongside alternately speeding up and slowing down on waves, its fairly clear that there cannot be one. A boat to leeward has right of way, no matter how it comes to be there, even though in some circumstances there are restrictions on where it can sail. The whole thread demonstrates the problems that arise when people have concepts in their head that are entirely absent from RRS.


Maybe I didn't word it quite right, the overtaking boat rule would clash with other rules, but as overtaking boat, you still have an obligation which is spelt out under different rules.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed


Originally posted by Rupert

If you establish an overlap to leeward from astern within 2 boat lengths, you cannot sail above your proper course.
Not quite accurate: 17 states: 
 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail
above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and
overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
 
If the gap opens to more than 2bl, leeward can then luff above her (leeward's) proper course. 
Originally posted by Rupert

You are welcome to sail below it. The other boat cannot sail below her proper course, but can sail above.
Again, not quite, I'm afraid. The old 17.2 (Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she gybes.) was removed from the rules in 2009. 
Assuming boats on the same tack: 
Now, before the boats are overlapped, RRS 12 (clear ahead/clear astern) applies. 
When the boats become overlapped, 15 applies. 
Once the overlap is established, it's RRS 11 and 16.1


So in the fist instance, a gap of more than 2 boat lengths has opened up, so we are back to square one. For the second, I've not got a rule book handy, so quoting the numbers isn't helping, but I'm pretty sure if I am being overtaken to leeward and bear away into the boat below, I'm in the wrong, but I can head up as far as I like.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by Rupert

but as overtaking boat, you still have an obligation which is spelt out under different rules.

No... that's a terrible way to think. An overlapped leeward boat has right of way whether its overtaking, being overtaken just sailing alongside or what.

Its just that if the overlap is established from astern and within two boats lengths there is one restriction in what the ROW boat can do. If the overlap is established from leeward, then no matter what the relative speeds of the boats, then that restriction doesn't exist.

So if a boat is overtaking from well to leeward on a converging course there are no restrictions on its course.

You can always look up the rules on line, find them from http://www.sailing.org/documents/racing-rules.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailing.org/documents/racing-rules.php


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 11:32pm
Doesn't sound like it's the case here....but 'overtaking boat keep clear' said to leeward ROW by keep clear windward is about the most frequent bit of intimidation / bullying / cheating I reckon I hear on the Race Course.  Had it yacht racing a couple of weeks ago.....


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by sargesail

Doesn't sound like it's the case here....but 'overtaking boat keep clear' said to leeward ROW by keep clear windward is about the most frequent bit of intimidation / bullying / cheating I reckon I hear on the Race Course.  Had it yacht racing a couple of weeks ago.....
Strongly disagree.

It's wrong, but it's most likely an indication of ignorance, misunderstanding or confusion about the rules.

Typically, even of beginners do read rule 12, they do so superfically, and say to themselves, 'oh, it's just the same as IRPCAS overtaking boat keep clear'.

And how can a grown man in a 30 foot yacht bully another grown man in another 30 foot yacht?

And ignorance or misunderstanding of the rules isn't anywhere near cheating.


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by Rupert

I've not got a rule book handy, so quoting the numbers isn't helping, but I'm pretty sure if I am being overtaken to leeward and bear away into the boat below, I'm in the wrong, but I can head up as far as I like.

A windward boat can bear away as much as she likes provided that she keeps clear of the leeward boat.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by sargesail

Doesn't sound like it's the case here....but 'overtaking boat keep clear' said to leeward ROW by keep clear windward is about the most frequent bit of intimidation / bullying / cheating I reckon I hear on the Race Course.  Had it yacht racing a couple of weeks ago.....
Strongly disagree.

It's wrong, but it's most likely an indication of ignorance, misunderstanding or confusion about the rules.

Typically, even of beginners do read rule 12, they do so superfically, and say to themselves, 'oh, it's just the same as IRPCAS overtaking boat keep clear'.

And how can a grown man in a 30 foot yacht bully another grown man in another 30 foot yacht?

And ignorance or misunderstanding of the rules isn't anywhere near cheating.


Around the Solent it is commonly heard from people who have been racing for many years.
Last time it really riled me it was from somebody who'd won a race at a Nationals that year.
Definitely a low form of cheating in some cases.

Shout protest and luff hard.


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 12:59pm
I find it amazing how many people still think 'overtaking boat keeps clear' is a racing rule. It must be well over 30 years or indeed 50 years since it was in the rules, yet it keeps popping up every now and again (along with mast abeam tbh)

-------------
OK 2122 & 2148


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by KazRob

It must be well over 30 years or indeed 50 years since it was in the rules,

I can't find any mention of overtaking in an electronic copy I have of a 1944 pamphlet with the Vanderbilt rules in, so I suspect its a lot longer than that. The only mention of overtaking I've ever seen* is in a copy of the 1910 Royal Canoe club racing rules, but its hard to imagine there's anyone alive who raced under those rules.

*I expect there are others of course, just what I've seen.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by KazRob

It must be well over 30 years or indeed 50 years since it was in the rules,

I can't find any mention of overtaking in an electronic copy I have of a 1944 pamphlet with the Vanderbilt rules in, so I suspect its a lot longer than that. The only mention of overtaking I've ever seen* is in a copy of the 1910 Royal Canoe club racing rules, but its hard to imagine there's anyone alive who raced under those rules.

*I expect there are others of course, just what I've seen.
It's used in my copy of the 1947 RYA/IYRU rules, but once the term is used, it takes two pages of conditions to make it work for racing.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by sargesail

Doesn't sound like it's the case here....but 'overtaking boat keep clear' said to leeward ROW by keep clear windward is about the most frequent bit of intimidation / bullying / cheating I reckon I hear on the Race Course.  Had it yacht racing a couple of weeks ago.....
Strongly disagree.

It's wrong, but it's most likely an indication of ignorance, misunderstanding or confusion about the rules.

Typically, even of beginners do read rule 12, they do so superfically, and say to themselves, 'oh, it's just the same as IRPCAS overtaking boat keep clear'.

And how can a grown man in a 30 foot yacht bully another grown man in another 30 foot yacht?

And ignorance or misunderstanding of the rules isn't anywhere near cheating.

Around the Solent it is commonly heard from people who have been racing for many years.
Last time it really riled me it was from somebody who'd won a race at a Nationals that year.
Definitely a low form of cheating in some cases.

Shout protest and luff hard.

We should compare notes....it was a National Champion yacht that said it to me....


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 7:52am
I wonder what the response would be if one hailed back "I didn't know we were racing under COLREGS"


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 9:06am
I have had this as the windward boat myself.
Leaving the windward mark with a sym. kite we had a quick hoist and set and got away clean, an asy who rounded inside us lost initial height on their hoist and then came up under us shouting we were in his way. We were close but never came near enough for bad seamanship or physically impeded him but he was getting in a right stew as his kite kept collapsing (it was pretty windy) as he entered out dirty air. My attitude was you put yourself in stupid place you sort it out. He dropped behind and we carried on (didn't notice if he ever came past, don't think so).
Was I wrong? 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 9:35am
Assuming a bear away onto a reach? I think, if you were windward boat, you were in the wrong and should have kept clear regardless of where he chose to sail. Rule 11. He did not gain an overlap from clear astern so R17 does not apply and even if it did his proper course with an assy kite is a broad reach or higher so he is entitled to sail you up as high as he needs to to get the assy working.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 9:51am
Interesting Sam. He had plenty of clear water, are you really saying I should have given him clear air as well?
Off to work now, look fwd to reading this eve.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 10:26am
No, of course not, there is no right to clear air. But, you were keep clear boat and he was entitled to sail pretty much where he wanted and you must keep clear and not impede him. The way it panned out it may well have been you in the bad place as he could have sailed you halfway across the channel if he so desired. The problem with sims and assys racing the same course is that the assy's 'proper course' may well be much higher than the sim's. We get the same thing on our lake, if I end up to windward of a 400 on a deep reach in the Blaze he will simply sail me off the lake while he gets his apparent wind working.......

BTW, I'm guessing your are sailing keelboats not dinghies?


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 11:28am
The way I read this, if L was originally inside (and therefore W), the overlap must have been broken on the exit from the mark. Therefore I assume the new overlap was established within 2 boat lengths to leeward and therefore L can't force W up? DD made a better mark rounding & hoist. Should he be penalised for that?
(NB. I don't know the rules in enough detail to quote numbers & don't have the time to go looking right now - sorry.)


-------------
Nick
http://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/register/boat_info.php?sail_no=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821: Sijambo


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 1:23pm
It was a windward mark so most likely a bear away (no mention of a tack or gybe) in which case W/L won't change. Even if the overlap was broken and re-established L can still sail his proper course which for an assy will often/usually be higher than a sim kite boat. DD made a rounding into a windward position and should expect to have to keep clear of the inside/leward boat. That's my reading of the situation FWIW, if Brass or any of the rules experts are around maybe they can clarify?

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

No, of course not, there is no right to clear air.

Guys, your are making life difficult for yourselves by inventing terms that are not in the rules.

Quite right, the requirement to keep clear does not include a requirement to provide undisturbed air.

Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.

But a requirement can exist under rule 24, although not applicable here.

But, you were keep clear boat and he was entitled to sail pretty much where he wanted

Yes

and you must keep clear

Yes

and not impede him.

No, keep clear means keep clear, no more, no less.

The way it panned out it may well have been you in the bad place as he could have sailed you halfway across the channel if he so desired.

But, seemingly, on DD's description, L was unable to sail high and fast in W's lee and (to depart from the language of the rules) 'couldn't get to him', whether because of poor sailing,or different types of boat, or some other reason.

The problem with sims and assys racing the same course is that the assy's 'proper course' may well be much higher than the sim's

Yup.

We get the same thing on our lake, if I end up to windward of a 400 on a deep reach in the Blaze he will simply sail me off the lake while he gets his apparent wind working.......

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

It was a windward mark so most likely a bear away (no mention of a tack or gybe) in which case W/L won't change.

and, BTW, rule 17 on/off won't change:  it will continue as it was when the boats first became overlapped.

Even if the overlap was broken and re-established L can still sail his proper course which for an assy will often/usually be higher than a sim kite boat.

Yes

 DD made a rounding into a windward position and should expect to have to keep clear of the inside/leward boat.

Yes, but as it proved, this doesn't usually prove too difficult.

That's my reading of the situation FWIW, if Brass or any of the rules experts are around maybe they can clarify?

Originally posted by Do Different

Right oh, on mobile so forgive any typos.

Keelboats? Nah no way, dinghies. Both trapeze boats reaching to a distant gybe mark on a traditional triangle course.

I accept that Asy. had luffing rights but the thing which was making him as mad as badger was that he couldn't get close enough through my dirty air to exercise them. Hence my assertion that even though he had ROW he was the one in the bad place and I was under no obligation to bail him out.

Yup. but I still don't understand why L couldn't have eased down a bit, separated, settled and built some speed and apparent and then given you stick.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 3:39pm
Right oh, on mobile so forgive any typos.

Keelboats? Nah no way, dinghies. Both trapeze boats reaching to a distant gybe mark on a traditional triangle course.

I accept that Asy. had luffing rights but the thing which was making him as mad as badger was that he couldn't get close enough through my dirty air to exercise them. Hence my assertion that even though he had ROW he was the one in the bad place and I was under no obligation to bail him out.






Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 3:59pm
Because boats were very closely matched for speed and he simply didn't have the legs to pull it off.
Peter Milne Javelin vs Phil Morrison Laser 4000.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 4:58pm
BTW. It's all very well getting a red mist on and trying to use every right to it's fullest extent. Racing is not always about going as fast as possible, sometimes smarts work better. If instead of taking on a fight he was always going to struggle with L. Asy. had backed off a tiny bit (half a boat length) and come up behind and over me he may have done better.
And Sam being a Windward sym. of an asy. ain't so bad, height is always good and if it gets silly simply back off for a couple of seconds and dive down behind. Sorry those 400s are giving you grief, go on get wily leave them to it and let them sail miles if it makes 'em feels good.
edit for some typos. LOL



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 5:22pm
That's what I do DD, t'was more of a 'would if I let them' than a description of what actually happens (most of the time anyway). 

The fact that he was getting "as and as a Badger" (lovely expression BTW) probably contributed to his demise, if he'd stayed cool he would have been more likely to sail faster and get past...... 

Oh, and thanks Brass :)


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com