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Taking penalties

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12769
Printed Date: 11 Dec 17 at 7:41pm
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Topic: Taking penalties
Posted By: NickM
Subject: Taking penalties
Date Posted: 18 Jun 17 at 5:32pm
If you have to spin, once you are clear of other boats etc. etc, is it best to start with a tack or gybe? My instinct would be to tack if it was windy but maybe gybe if it was light to work up some momentum.



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Jun 17 at 6:33pm
It will depend on a host of factors, including whether you are on a downwind or upwind leg.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 19 Jun 17 at 2:43am
Good article here

http://www.sailingworld.com/how-to/faster-penalty-turns" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailingworld.com/how-to/faster-penalty-turns

But there are a few other key considerations:
  • After an incident, there is often an 'open side' where there is room for you to do your turns, in contrast to a 'closed side' where you are not well clear of other boats:  in this case, it is often best to start your turns by turning into the open space:  for example, suppose you have failed to keep clear of a boat clear ahead, and there are boats to windward but not to leeward, then rolling into a gybe to start your penalty may be the best course.
  • The requirement is two tacks and two gybes, NOT 720 degrees:  if, starting from close hauled, TWA 45 degrees, you tack first, your second gybe will come out, say TWA 175 degrees, that's 130 degrees below your old close hauled course, and you will now have completed your penalty and will have all your rights while you come up to that course, po whatever course you need to sail:  this may be useful in large fleets with lots of boats around (although, it's quite difficult to do the necessary time and space estimate just at the time when you're initially responding to the incident).
  • Depending where you are relative to marks, you may be quite happy to complete your penalty on a different course to the course you were initially sailing:  for example, suppose you have an incident, round about abeam of a windward mark;  if you stand on on your original close hauled course till well clear of other boats, somewhat upwind and outside the mark, then start with a tack, you will complete your penalty on a downwind course, hopefully having left the mark on the required side, and facing on the course to the downwind mark.
Maybe some team racing folk have some useful 'rules of thumb'?


Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 20 Jun 17 at 8:08pm
Good article. Thanks Brass.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Brass

 
  • The requirement is two tacks and two gybes, NOT 720 degrees:  if, starting from close hauled, TWA 45 degrees, you tack first, your second gybe will come out, say TWA 175 degrees, that's 130 degrees below your old close hauled course, and you will now have completed your penalty and will have all your rights while you come up to that course, po whatever course you need to sail:  this may be useful in large fleets with lots of boats around (although, it's quite difficult to do the necessary time and space estimate just at the time when you're initially responding to the incident).

I get the idea behind this, but in reality you would have to stop heading up to assert those rights(rule 16)


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Brass

 
  • The requirement is two tacks and two gybes, NOT 720 degrees:  if, starting from close hauled, TWA 45 degrees, you tack first, your second gybe will come out, say TWA 175 degrees, that's 130 degrees below your old close hauled course, and you will now have completed your penalty and will have all your rights while you come up to that course, po whatever course you need to sail:  this may be useful in large fleets with lots of boats around (although, it's quite difficult to do the necessary time and space estimate just at the time when you're initially responding to the incident).

I get the idea behind this, but in reality you would have to stop heading up to assert those rights(rule 16)
I don't know what you mean by 'assert those rights'.  Either a boat is a right of way boat or it is not.

I think you may not be applying rule 16 correctly.

Rule 16 is a rule of Section B:  it is a limitation on the right of way rules of Section A.  It does NOT displace or render the right of way rules inoperable.

A right of way leeward boat is perfectly entitled to head up, and a windward boat is required to keep clear:  rule 16.1 requires only that, when changing course the leeward boat gives the windward boat room, that is the space, acting promptly and in a seamanlike way to keep clear.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 11:41pm
I can't imagine a situation when you would need to luff someone as you exited your turns. 

So I only though about port starboard. Being on port you have no right of way.

But, reading the new rules, I think you're right. Previously, when a port boat takes avoiding action, the starboard boat couldn't change course so the port boat had to immediately change theirs. Under the new rules that's only the case when the port boat is ducking. 

RRS 16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."

RRS 16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping
clear by sailing to pass astern of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack
boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack
boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping
clear.

Does that mean when to reaching boats meet on opposite tack, and the port boat sails higher to avid the starboard, the starboard boat can dial them up? 



Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 12:52am
Originally posted by mozzy

I can't imagine a situation when you would need to luff someone as you exited your turns. 

So I only though about port starboard. Being on port you have no right of way.

But, reading the new rules, I think you're right. Previously, when a port boat takes avoiding action, the starboard boat couldn't change course so the port boat had to immediately change theirs. Under the new rules that's only the case when the port boat is ducking. 

RRS 16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."

RRS 16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping
clear by sailing to pass astern of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack
boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack
boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping
clear.

Does that mean when to reaching boats meet on opposite tack, and the port boat sails higher to avid the starboard, the starboard boat can dial them up? 
For pete's sake, the unconditional (omitting 'pass astern') version of rule 16.2 was the 2001 version of the rule.  It was amended in 2005.

Yes, S can dial up, but why on earth would she want to?  Bearing in mind that rule 16.2 has been deleted for Match Racing since 2001.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 9:22am
They might want to do it to force a penalty on another boat? 

I've been yielding to boats on port when heading up and bearing away unnecessarily for years (exiting mark roundings)! 

What happens when a port boat tacks to avoid? Can in that moment the starboard boat bear away and call a penalty? Wouldn't that now be the standard defence when port goes for a lee bow tack? 

Edit: http://www.worldsailingywc.org/tools/documents/sp_CO_07a-%5B3206%5D.pdf " rel="nofollow - I've read this now 
Seems the rule was changed to stop port tack boats on a start as the starboard boats racking up would be heading up and preventing a port boat who was until they headed up, keeping clear. Which seems like a good change. 


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 11:00am
Originally posted by mozzy

They might want to do it to force a penalty on another boat? 

While the rest of the fleet thunders past?

I've been yielding to boats on port when heading up and bearing away unnecessarily for years (exiting mark roundings)! 

What happens when a port boat tacks to avoid? Can in that moment the starboard boat bear away and call a penalty?

Simple rule 16.1:  when the starboard tack boat changes course she must give the port tack/tacking boat room to keep clear.  If S changes course so as to aim at P, then holds steady course, and P, acting promptly and in a seamanlike way can't keep clear then S has not given P room to keep clear.

Wouldn't that now be the standard defence when port goes for a lee bow tack? 

Edit: http://www.worldsailingywc.org/tools/documents/sp_CO_07a-%5B3206%5D.pdf " rel="nofollow - I've read this now 

Link not working.  What is that domain anyway?

Seems the rule was changed to stop port tack boats on a start as the starboard boats racking up would be heading up and preventing a port boat who was until they headed up, keeping clear. Which seems like a good change. 


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 11:34am
I agree, I wouldn't normally dial a boat down. But if we were racing for a series and I didn't need to beat them, but just for them to lose a few places I might. Although, hunting a boat on another leg would be against 24.2. 

It's a link to a submission by the Netherlands and Italian sailing federations for the deletion of rule 16.2 altogether. 
Try pasting this link: http://www.worldsailingywc.org/tools/documents/sp_CO_07a-%5B3206%5D.pdf

It just provides a bit of the reasoning for the change in rule and also describes the rounding of marks which I was talking about. I lost a protest once on a port layline boat who I bore away into. He had plenty of time to see me bearing away and avoid, but it hinged on the fact I was changing my course and if I didn't change my course he would of passed clear ahead. Since then I have always been weary of bearing away too early, and have delayed pulling the kite in some case until I am clear of port tackers. 

So, here's a question for you, if you finished your penalty gybing from port to starboard, would dialling up on a port boat be giving them room to keep clear (16.1)? 

Anyway, I've learnt something, so thanks. I'd tracked all the changes to room at marks and tacking in the zone etc, but was completely unaware of this change. Makes quite a difference to how I approach mark exits in a fleet. 


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 11:55am
Originally posted by mozzy

I agree, I wouldn't normally dial a boat down. But if we were racing for a series and I didn't need to beat them, but just for them to lose a few places I might. Although, hunting a boat on another leg would be against 24.2. 

Yup.

It's a link to a submission by the Netherlands and Italian sailing federations for the deletion of rule 16.2 altogether. 
Try pasting this link: http://www.worldsailingywc.org/tools/documents/sp_CO_07a-%5B3206%5D.pdf

Thank you.

But can you tell me what the domain is and how you found the link?

It just provides a bit of the reasoning for the change in rule and also describes the rounding of marks which I was talking about. I lost a protest once on a port layline boat who I bore away into. He had plenty of time to see me bearing away and avoid, but it hinged on the fact I was changing my course and if I didn't change my course he would of passed clear ahead. Since then I have always been weary of bearing away too early, and have delayed pulling the kite in some case until I am clear of port tackers. 

So, here's a question for you, if you finished your penalty gybing from port to starboard, would dialling up on a port boat be giving them room to keep clear (16.1)? 

It will always depend on distances, speeds and characteristics of boats.

If the right of way boat does not give the other boat the space she needs, acting promptly and in a seamanlike way, the right of way boat has not given room to keep clear and breaks rule 16.1.  If it was possible for the give way boat, acting promptly and in a seamanlike way to keep clear, then the right of way boat does not break rule16.1.

Anyway, I've learnt something, so thanks. I'd tracked all the changes to room at marks and tacking in the zone etc, but was completely unaware of this change. Makes quite a difference to how I approach mark exits in a fleet. 

Sounds like you've had 13 bad years <g>.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 12:05pm
I found the link by googling "rule 16.2 changes sailing" and it came up as the fourth hit through a ISAF youth sailing worlds link. 

Turns are pretty tight in the 200 and happens very quickly. So maybe my issue is I can't imagine a situation where such sudden dialling up wouldn't put a boat in a position of not having room to keep clear 

I'm still a bit unclear about marks. Bearing down on someone after going around a windward mark kinda feels like a dial down. I.e. P was passing astern, but then S bore away 100 degrees and suddenly P isn't even clearing their bow. 

Seen any protests about this since the rule change? 


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by mozzy

I found the link by googling "rule 16.2 changes sailing" and it came up as the fourth hit through a ISAF youth sailing worlds link. 

Odd place for a historical ISAF Council Agenda document to be.

Turns are pretty tight in the 200 and happens very quickly. So maybe my issue is I can't imagine a situation where such sudden dialling up wouldn't put a boat in a position of not having room to keep clear 

Well, a typical situation would be where the other boat was just a bit further away.

Port/starboard dial ups aren't usually problematical for rule 16.1:  P usually has all the room in the world to windward to luff and if necessary tack away.

I'm still a bit unclear about marks. Bearing down on someone after going around a windward mark kinda feels like a dial down. I.e. P was passing astern, but then S bore away 100 degrees and suddenly P isn't even clearing their bow. 

Seen any protests about this since the rule change? 

Well, all the protests I've ever heard have been after 2004.

And the 2001-2004 form of rule 16.2 was only in force for that quadrennium.

I think you may be a bit stuck in the 2001-04 paradigm which looked like it absolutely froze the starboard tack boat on her one course.

Rule 16.1, as it now stands is much more flexible:  it ia always going to depend on distances, speeds, courses, wind and wave conditions and boat characteristics (Case 21).

It's not difficult to apply once you get rid of the 'frozen on course' idea:  either a boat, acting promptly and in a seamanlike way (and in compliance with other rules) would have been able to keep clear or she would not.  Generally the key issues are whether there was any obstruction to manoeuvre or whether characteristics or circumstances of the boat limited her manoeuvre.

Prolly the best way to get the hand of it is to read the Cases and RYA Appeals on the definition of Room and rule 16.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 1:57pm
Well, I did all my rule studying when I was sailing toppers and the protest I lost was in toppers (2003). So that tallies. I feel like one of the old blokes who hail 'mast abeam'.

Except in my case I've been meekly waiting to bear away until there is sufficient gap in port takers . A shame, because if there was a hail to go with this action I probably would have been corrected a long time ago. 



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