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BAR personnel

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Multihulls
Forum Name: America's Cup
Forum Discription: Your thoughts on challenges to win the 'Auld Mug'
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12761
Printed Date: 13 Dec 17 at 8:47pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: BAR personnel
Posted By: ColH
Subject: BAR personnel
Date Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 8:18pm
Anyone else wondering whether Ben should be doing the tactics and someone else (skif/cat/moth) be doing the driving.....?



Replies:
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 9:02pm
That thought did occur to me, then I recalled he won the ACWS while driving so I think and hope he's in the right spot. They seem to have difficulty setting the boat up for differing wind strengths. Fortunately, tonight, FRA were worse, but NZL took BAR apart.

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Nick
http://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/register/boat_info.php?sail_no=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821: Sijambo


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 9:33pm
One suspects Mr Ainslie retired to avoid getting into the history books with the all time greatest losing margin...


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 9:58pm
Always the same once they become celebs.. hunger all gone.

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 10:55pm
You would have thought rigging issues would have been sorted out well before main event, that he seems to be an adjustment behind other boats.


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 11:23pm
Who trims the foils?  That's seems the weakest part. They beat NZ to the first mark, but splash down too often when turning. 


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 7:58am
It does seem that all of the other teams have a specialist helm

Cant really imagine Ben giving the helm over to anyone else though



Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 8:34am
Boatspeed makes you a tactical genius... no boatspeed makes (even Ben) look like an idiot.  Our observation is that our grinders seem to be spinning slower and less smoothly than everyone else, and by yesterday's performance they need bigger and more stall tolerant foils

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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: Notl
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 9:29am
NZ were sailing 50percent faster than BAR.
That is what happened.

Light wind sailing is a skill and art developed by years of experience doing it.
I sailed many light wind races in wind speeds below force 1. Great fun especially being able to sail twice the speed of the rest of the fleet. Ben needs some experienced light wind inland sailors to help him out.
When the winds are light you need to know all the secrets.



Posted By: FreshScum
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 2:00pm
So,,,,what actually happened... there was a breakage and the foil in the starboard hull wasn't able to be adjusted during the first gybe against ETNZ.
In order to be able to sail in the race against Groupama Team France they needed to make repairs. In order to have enough time to do that, they retired.
Arguably they should have retired against Softbank Team Japan. The damage that was found to have occurred at the end of the race almost ended their campaign.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 2:32pm


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 4:10pm
For me I think it a systemic organisational issue. There tactic is to continually develop. They have brought in F1 supremo Martin Whitmarsh presumably because of is understanding of the team dynamics required for hi-tec, constantly developing sport. Unfortunately Sailing is far more unpredictable than motor racing. Slapping on a new bit of aero on to a car and testing it will give far more predictable results on any given race track. Even if that bit of areo flexes more and the detaches the flow. Slap on a new bit of areo on a yacht and sail the same race track (sailing area) and you'll get a thousand different results. Hence why you two boat test. And it takes more time than they are allotting to achieve control over there developments than they have. In my opinion. So you might be faster with a foil with a bigger bucket curve than the one your graph tells you if super quick. Just because you can't sail it well enough because of the variables. For me BAR look like they are chasing the computer numbers to much. And have forgotten about having enough margin. Unlike ETNZ, who look like they have taken the very pragmatic approach of being able to always have enough 'fluid pressure' to pull off manoeuvres that they didn't expect. Which gives them a hefty margin to work with. We are on the edge, and repeatedly fall off it.

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Posted By: Notl
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 4:31pm
Quote from Ben

“We had a systems failure and lost control of the foils, but for sure they would have found a way past anyway.”
Read more at http://www.yachtingworld.com/americas-cup/land-rover-bar-has-precarious-win-as-americas-cup-teams-sail-at-four-times-wind-speed-107849#c6Wr1kicVz3qB31d.99

BAR need to dominate all wind speeds if they want to win.
NZ were going wind speed X 4.
I would like to see BAR do that.


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by JimC


Lost me there


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Lost me there


'twill soon be toast...


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 8:21pm
Too deep for me jimc.
Presumably damage from collision with Japanese boat?


Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by Noah

That thought did occur to me, then I recalled he won the ACWS while driving so I think and hope he's in the right spot. They seem to have difficulty setting the boat up for differing wind strengths. Fortunately, tonight, FRA were worse, but NZL took BAR apart.

It was just in looking at the crew histories on the various teams many (maybe half?) have several with skiff/cat/extreme experience. But for sure he's been sailing the foiling AC's for years, so that's probably not a/the main problem. I guess I just see his real excellence being in determination/motivation/management/preparation, and especially, in tactics - so I was just pondering whether, relatively speaking, he's a bit 'wasted' on the helm. 

(Can't see anyone beating NZL to be Challenger - so far they are just a level of performance and consistency above all but maybe Oracle). 




Posted By: Notl
Date Posted: 03 Jun 17 at 11:49am
I suspect NZ are concentrating on power to weight ratio for crew.
Maybe lighter crew but powerful? Any info?
But light wind sailing takes extreme light wind skills from the helm.


Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 03 Jun 17 at 3:31pm
I realise that the rules are what they are, but I reckon it'd be a big benefit to have a powerful enough grinding crew (or more efficient hydraulics) so that the tactician doesn't have to spent most of his time staring into the bilges...?!!  (Though if you've just been roughed up by Dean Barker then that's not an entirely bad idea Ouch)



Posted By: Notl
Date Posted: 04 Jun 17 at 5:36am
My take on that last race.
Looked like BAR made classic mistakes against USA in the last race.
They were gaining on USA but losing it again.
Despite getting most of the wind shifts right they overstood the lay lines.
Also best to win the start if you want to win.
Also they could have aimed more downwind like USA to help save a gybe perhaps?
Their tacks did not look as good as USA, have they still got damage?
USA got the tactics and strategy right.
Had BAR won the start they would probably have won the race despite everything else.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Jun 17 at 9:35am
They do appear to be a newly put together crew.
I find that nose down stance annoying, bigger foils might create more drag, how much time is lost due to Hull dipping.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Jun 17 at 11:25am
No boatspeed makes anyone look like an idiot tactically...

My understanding is that the nose down trim makes for lower aerodynamic drag.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Jun 17 at 3:33pm
Aerodynamic drag ! must be a substantial gain to risk dropping nose in.


Posted By: Notl
Date Posted: 04 Jun 17 at 8:25pm
No racing due to light winds.
That is like a win for Ben.
Time to get it together, no more light winds forecast for next few days.
I am sure the team will be working all hours.


Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 4:58pm
The nose down deloads the rudder and they are only allowed 3 degrees of movement in the rudder, so has to be like this. 

BAR are doing a lot better than they were a month ago in all of the testing. A shame NZ picked them, as they are looking like an awesome outfit at the moment. 

All down to the aerodynamics and consistent development. Look what happened in the last cup, got a load more boat speed and were able to turn around the deficit amazingly. 

The strangest thing to me is the amount of teams letting the losing boat split, so much risk doing that!


Posted By: FreshScum
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by 423zero

They do appear to be a newly put together crew.
I find that nose down stance annoying, bigger foils might create more drag, how much time is lost due to Hull dipping.

CJ, Hutton and Freddie have sailed in various combinations for 15+ years, winning stuff from Youth Matchracing to Extreme 40 series. They're as tight as any of the teams.

As Pete Burling said, at this level, dry laps should be the minimum standard. So you're looking for the optimum lift/drag trade-off assuming minimal mistakes. I think it might just be quite hard to sail these boats...


Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 11:28am
I wonder how much the crew weight effects balancing the power of the sail?
If you think about it, the grinders are more, purely just power generation by the looks of it (though others have differing other job). Seems daft that they have to cross the boat (so there is a break in power generation) all the time rather than just having a "central" position where they just get there head down and grind, or even a recumbent cycling position to aid aero.


Posted By: Notl
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 2:32pm
Seems to be a shambles for BAR gifting the NZs 2 races.
Ben always does better under pressure and he has certainly got that.
Leg muscles are stronger than arm muscles so I suspect BAR are done for.

To win the AC teams have to think right ouside the box.
NZ have that can do attitude.
I hope BEN wins but I don't see it now.


Posted By: Notl
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 8:59pm
Whoa, Having seen BAR being cautious I was wondering if NZ might get carried away and break something.
I saw the Kiwis suddenly go Zero Knots on Virtual Eye.
Heard the news about the pitch pole on the live comentary.
No racing tomorrow though I suspect due to very strong winds forecast.
So NZ get time to fix their boat which I suspect they will do unless damage too great.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 9:37pm
Live news link at the moment on youtube.


Posted By: Notl
Date Posted: 08 Jun 17 at 8:59pm
BAR sailed the same speed as NZ when they were in close proximity.
This indicates to me that boat speed was equal. NZ are sailing a better course and winning more starts.
That is one reason they won probably due to easier to use technology.
Leg muscles are stronger than arm muscles so they also expend less energy. Leaving more for sailing the boat.
But the other is that British culture shuns thinking outside the box.
Creative inventive thinkers are put down as stupid in the UK.
That attitude will always lead to failure in technical events.
The problem is with the whole UK who only respect bankers and University graduates who are not often the most technically creative. That is why the iPhone is American and Elon Musk is sucessful in America.
The UK probably has the most creative brains in the world but they are wasted un the UK.
To win the AC Ben needs to employ the crackpots with the mad ideas.
My first design when I started sailing was for a winged keel.
I did not patent it because I knew it would be a waste of time in the UK.

Not thinking outside the box is why Ben Ainslie lost.


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 08 Jun 17 at 9:28pm
I think they just lost cos it was their first campaign and they had a lot more learning to do.

They made amazing progress throughout the regatta, and start the next cycle much higher up the curve.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jun 17 at 10:03pm
Much smaller budget, too. Not convinced there are fewer "thinkers" on the team. Almost too many, rather than NZ's quite conservative approach. Cycles were a risk which paid off, but other than that, they have simply sailed well.

Was really impressed by the last race they won. Went to yoga before the last loss, but gather it was lost on the start. BA won plenty of them, though, and you can't win them all at this level.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Jun 17 at 10:06pm
Notl
Never heard of the industrial revolution ? 


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 08 Jun 17 at 11:32pm
"Creative inventive thinkers are put down as stupid in the UK."

You must be mad? There are currently 10 teams in formula 1 this season, 8? of them have their factories here in the UK. The 3 leading Chief Engineers are all English and were educated here in the UK

As for using cycles to grind hydraulic pressure I don't think i saw at any point any team suffer with insufficient pressure to run their systems. You could see the Kiwi's sailed their boat a lot better than BAR at the beginning but you could see in the last 2 races BAR was able to match them in the majority of their maneuvers inc. Sailing 100% in the air. Also IIRC Ken Read said that BAR won the most starts out of everyone during the event so far so starting wasn't the factor in our demise 




Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 09 Jun 17 at 8:14am
Only downside of the bikes I could see was their lack of cyclers 'movability'. Had the crash been with ETNZ rather than Japan, I suspect the outcome would've been horrific.


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 09 Jun 17 at 9:28am
Well, I guess a lot of post-mortem activity will now take place amongst BAR. I do hope the next cup will be in the same boats as I have found them exciting and also believe there is a ton more potential to master them better next round. Its clear the AC50's are quite different to theAC45's in the ACWS and its a shame that there really wasnt enough time for any team to really master these new beasts. The time given to practice as ruled by the ACEA was definitely inadequate and probably contributed to the rather scarey accidents/incidents that happened.

Artemis seem to be doing an Oracle-type comeback so still lots more drama to unfold before the Challenger finals and then the AC-proper


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Chris


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Jun 17 at 9:53am
Well, heat has been applied, and, like my bread, BAR are now toast...



Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 09 Jun 17 at 4:50pm
Notl: I remember reading that MITI (the Japanese Ministry of International Trade and Industry) issued a report a few years back which assessed the Brits as among the most creating and original thinkers in the world in both Art and Science.

Our problem is that all too often we Brits are incapable of bringing new inventions to market without foreign investment = ownership, not to mention being able to run a big manufacturing corporation effectively.

And now we don't seem to do politics very well either...


Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 09 Jun 17 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by NickM


...
And now we don't seem to do politics very well either...

If in doubt...... just go sailing instead Smile



Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 27 Jun 17 at 12:02am
Am I the only one here thinking maybe BAR don't look quite so bad after all, in the light of the drubbing Oracle received. Ben took as many race wins from them as Oracle did, from fewer races sailed.

Ainslie arguably seemed to come out of the series with the best record in the pre-starts too, so it must auger well for their next campaign?


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 27 Jun 17 at 7:45am
If you compare BAR to Oracle alone, then possibly, Yes, they weren't so bad. But TNZ were just the next level up.....  BAR need to push the envelope next time, whatever type of boats get sailed.

I watched all the racing on the TV and thought the racing was far better than many would have believed at the beginning. Some really exciting stuff.

Well deserved win TNZ.


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Chris



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