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Club or Rya Membership required ?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Beginner questions
Forum Discription: Advice for those who are new to sailing
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12670
Printed Date: 19 Oct 17 at 3:03am
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Topic: Club or Rya Membership required ?
Posted By: Sailerf
Subject: Club or Rya Membership required ?
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 7:49pm

Well this could go horribly wrong for a first post.

I have just got back in to dinghy sailing and wile I like it has to fit in with a number of other things I like and like not to do in life. I am lucky enough to be able to keep my dinghy in a field by the water where I can launch from. Now and again I would like to go and sail at some events. My life does not allow me to do that very regularly. And I have been told I must be a member of a club or the Rya to enter an event by the class. Now the boat is insured and I am a member of the class. I did join the local yacht club some years ago but found I had only been there three times in the year, so it seemed to be a bit of a waste of money. Now I would rather cut of my arm that give the RYA any money could someone explain how anyone can impose this type of restrictive practice in this day and age legally? 




Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 8:21pm
You need to be a member of something connected to World Sailing as you are using their rules, basically. Some classes are very strict, others will be happy for you to give things a go before worrying about it.

Why such strict objection to the RYA? They may have their oddities, do things you might object to, even, but they are hardly evil.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Sailerf
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 8:31pm
Thanks not going to have discussion on feelings about the rya here . So as a member of the class and by paying an entry fee to a club to race do I not do that ? 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 8:53pm
I don't think so. It's all somewhere in the rules, can't remember the wording offhand.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 9:07pm
However entry to some events includes temporary membership of the club for the duration of the event, which should be adequate. There are also, I believe, 'paper' sailing clubs which provide the needed affiliation and absolutely nothing else for a very moderate membership.

The point of the exercise, AIUI, is that only people who are members of an organisation or its affiliates are subject to the rules and discipline of the organisation.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Rupert

I don't think so. It's all somewhere in the rules, can't remember the wording offhand.

Rule 75
 
ENTERING A RACE
75.1 To enter a race, a boat shall comply with the requirements of the organizing authority of the race. She shall be entered by
(a) a member of a club or other organization affiliated to a World Sailing member national authority,
(b) such a club or organization, or
(c) a member of a World Sailing member national authority.

Provided that you class association is affiliated with RYA (or WS direct), which it may or may not be, you are OK.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 9:34pm
It's rule 75.1 of the current RRS.

I haven't done many events (and no class championships/opens) since I returned to dinghy racing 10 years ago but until last November I was not a member of either the RYA or an RYA affiliated club. The one annual open handicap event I did (three times in those years) did not ask for any proof of club/RYA membership (though it may have been in the declaration).

Other options :- many clubs offer a 'country membership' which costs significantly less than full membership. To qualify you have to live a minimum distance from the club (thus ensuring you are unlikely to sail there on a weekly basis). Or you could join a holiday club, my old club, RWBSWSC, has an annual membership of £62 and are RYA affiliated. Even if you never sailed there (and it's a great place to sail) it would almost be the cheapest way if you wish to be fully above board. But, if you can bring yourself to join the RYA that's only £45 and is the cheapest way to remain compliant and above board.

However I doubt you would be turned away by most local and regional events anyway, they would not want to discourage participation.




Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 9:36pm
What class of dinghy do you sail BTW?


Posted By: Sailerf
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 7:37am
So I guess that by entering an event at a Uk sailing club you automatically become a temporary member as it will be a condition of the local council licence that all parties on there site using there facilities must be one. And by signing there paper work you have agreed to there terms and conditions. So you have met the criteria? My original question was how can a class or body impose this on one, as it would be deemed as restrictive practice and protectionism now days. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 8:40am
It's not a question of the RYA or whoever imposing the condition, it is part of the Racing Rules Of Sailing (as Rupert says) and if you choose to race you agree to abide by those rules. I imagine it's common to most competitive sports that to enter an event organised under the auspices of a National Body you have to be a member of that body (an affiliated club confers a level of membership). It is not unreasonable for that organising body to ask that each competitor helps fund their activities by either direct payment of subs or joining a club which pays them an affiliation fee. It certainly is the case that in motorsport, canoeing and windsurfing (which has a different national body to sailing in the UK) the organising body is funded in that way. I have no first hand knowledge of other sports but I'm sure football, running, cycling, tennis, cricket all have similar.


Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 9:22am
It is only a restrictive practice if it stops you from doing something that you could otherwise do.

You are perfectly able to kick a football in a field (provided you are allowed to be on that field) without any issues, but taking part in an organised league would mean you'd have to join a club. Similarly, in sailing, you can sail in waters which have no restrictions on them, but for certain activities you'd have to join a club. But nobody forces you to do that. However, you can't have your cake (take part in an organised race) and eat it (stay out of membership in a relevant organisation).



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Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon)


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 9:29am
It's not protectionism. Sailing racing works because there are agreed rules. To race you must accept those rules and you do that by being a member of a body that is affiliated. There are costs to creating, monitoring and updating those rules and it's quite reasonable that those wanting to take part in organised racing support it. 

If you don't want to join a club then the cheapest option is individual membership of the RYA - which you've said you don't want to do, but have failed to explain why.

I wouldn't assume that you automatically become a temporary member of a club by registering for an event. That may be true in some places, but not everywhere - you would need to check.


-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 10:27am
if other members of the class are signing on using the class association, do the same.... if they are not, simply put RYA in the box.  It's not like they are going to check with the RYA if you are a member or not is it?  

Sure, technically this is 'cheating', but if you're only doing a couple of events a year, then I sure as hell would never protest it.... rather encourage you to come along to a few events so that club membership becomes something you might actually find time and opportunity for down the line....

helpful to know which class though.... 


Posted By: Sailerf
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 10:37am
Yes I think my point has been a little missed.
1, you become a temporary member of a club when your registra.
2, you agree to comply with the ws/rya rules of sailing at the same time by signing the documents.
If I open the sailerf yacht club to men only who must go to church every third Sunday and eat pork on a Thursday and have three wife's. No court in the land would uphold my rules If I stopped some from entering one of my events.
I understand stand that other spots are the same in some ways but we are taking about sailing. There must be a lawyer here that can answer this.


Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Sailerf

Yes I think my point has been a little missed.

Sorry, but I don't get your point. A club, being affiliated to the RYA, holds an event, and requires membership to a club (or the RYA) as an entry condition to that event, in order to police adherence to rules etc. You are not member of either a club, or the RYA, but you want to take part anyway. It seems to me to be clear that this is not a restrictive practice. It is your choice whether you want to take part in the event under the prescribed conditions. If you are not happy with them, you are free not to participate.




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Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon)


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 11:20am
Originally posted by Sailerf

Yes I think my point has been a little missed.
1, you become a temporary member of a club when your registra.

I doubt this is the case for most events that I have ever entered.... but I could be wrong


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 11:59am
My take on the temporary membership thing is that it is granted so that competitors / participants in the event can use the club's facilities for the duration. I've seen it in the documentation for week-long events, less so for a one- or two-day open. Not sure that a visitor can / should claim membership of the host club for the purposes of entry. 

Whilst it is in the rules that to compete membership is required, does anyone check? Another example of rules not enforced, a la replica kit in SMODs.

Sailing is far from alone in proscribing rules etc. As I understand it, Fred cannot be registered to play for more than one FA affiliated football club at the same time, but I'm happy to be corrected if this is not the case.


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Nick
http://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/register/boat_info.php?sail_no=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821: Sijambo


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 12:16pm
You may become a temporary member at some clubs by registering for an event, but it's certainly not always the case, or I suspect common. You may be granted guest access to the facilities, for the duration, as in this excerpt from the rules of a club that runs regular open events:

"Any person not a Member of the Club, who is a competitor or crew member in any race
sponsored by or on behalf of the Club, or a competitor or crew member's bona-fide guest, is entitled to the use of the Club premises both during and within a period of twenty-four hours before and after the event in which they are competing if so authorised by a member of the Executive Committee."

but that is not temporary membership. But you won't be a competitor unless you are a member of an affiliated club, or the RYA, so you won't get valid guest access either!


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 12:21pm
That rule in most clubs is there to allow competitors to buy drinks at the bar as most clubs license only allowed members to buy alcohol.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Sailerf

Yes I think my point has been a little missed.
1, you become a temporary member of a club when your registra.

I doubt this is the case for most events that I have ever entered.... but I could be wrong

Definitely not the case at any club I have visited. You are usually granted 'guest' membership for licensing law purposes usually (as most sailing clubs are private members clubs there are restrictions on their intoxicating liquor licenses).

As others have said the cheapest way forward is individual RYA membership which is around £40 a year (IIRC) or find a 'ghost' club that is affiliated. Either way you will have to be affiliated with the RYA. Giving a little bit of your cash to support your sport is not unreasonable to ask....


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Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 2:23pm
You can quite happily try and do what you like really, but at an organised event, then there are perhaps strings and things attached to insurances, ownership of the water, local bye-laws etc. etc. that would put your fellow competitors and organisers in the sh1t if you don't play ball. 
I have a rugby ball in the garage. Quite a nice new one actually.  So I may just sue the arse off the RFU for not letting me play at Twickenham yesterday.
However, I take your point, and you may well be right, but my pockets aren't deep enough to try and prove a point of principal which can be easily circumvented by the suggestions in previous posts.
Be interested to know why it is such an issue for you?



Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 2:32pm
That rule in most clubs is there to allow competitors to buy drinks at the bar as most clubs license only allowed members to buy alcohol.

Exactly!


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Sailerf

Now I would rather cut of my arm that give the RYA any money



Go sail around on your own then


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 6:07pm
@sailorf, as you suspected you have received some flack for your question. However I would like to welcome you to the forum and hope the 'robust' response some have given will not deter you from posting on here in the future. 


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 8:14pm
It's not quite the same, but in running events there is usually a free to be paid if you're not a member of the governing body i.e. If you turn up at say, the Stoneybridge 10k, and are not a member of Scottish Athletics Association (in my case) you need to pay £2 extra which is the fee that is paid for the event to be sanctioned. Members of the assoc do not need to pay. OK in sailing we are hardly likely to have a few hundred fun sailors turn up (although enevitably there are a few clowns) but the idea is the same. The governing body needs some income to promote the sport etc etc, but that's another thread I guess....


Posted By: Sailerf
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 8:51pm
It's quite clear now thanks as the rules of private members clubs state in law when entering an event one you agree to abide by there rules but too you are a temporary member for the period of the event. Two wile WS and the RYA can set and up hold the rules on the water and do with your boat, no court would allow them to demand you join an organisation. Thanks for all your input there only seams to be one silly comment of go and sail on your own. I would point out that most clubs are seeing the membership numbers drop year on year. Sailing is a capital expensive sport to enter and will likely see more decrease in numbers as the years go on. I have nothing against my local club and in years to come I will likely rejoin when I have more time. I shall leave this by pointing out that every obstacle that is put up stops people participating. To join my local club and the joining fee for a year is over £600.00 which I could use towards going to say a few travel events that ultimately benefit sailing. Wile some of you will love and others lothe the RYA there should be a choice whether to support them or not. Happy sailing Sailerf


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by Sailerf

It's quite clear now thanks as the rules of private members clubs state in law when entering an event one you agree to abide by there rules but too you are a temporary member for the period of the event

Where?

Two wile WS and the RYA can set and up hold the rules on the water and do with your boat, no court would allow them to demand you join an organisation.

Really? 

Thanks for all your input there only seams to be one silly comment of go and sail on your own.

Maybe not so silly after all

I would point out that most clubs are seeing the membership numbers drop year on year. Sailing is a capital expensive sport to enter and will likely see more decrease in numbers as the years go on. I have nothing against my local club and in years to come I will likely rejoin when I have more time. I shall leave this by pointing out that every obstacle that is put up stops people participating. To join my local club and the joining fee for a year is over £600.00 which I could use towards going to say a few travel events that ultimately benefit sailing.

Find a cheaper club, £600 is pretty expensive as club subs go

Wile some of you will love and others lothe the RYA there should be a choice whether to support them or not. Happy sailing Sailerf

You can choose not to support them by not attending any sanctioned events.


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 5:25am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Rupert

I don't think so. It's all somewhere in the rules, can't remember the wording offhand.

Rule 75
 
ENTERING A RACE
75.1 To enter a race, a boat shall comply with the requirements of the organizing authority of the race. She shall be entered by
(a) a member of a club or other organization affiliated to a World Sailing member national authority,
(b) such a club or organization, or
(c) a member of a World Sailing member national authority.

Provided that you class association is affiliated with RYA (or WS direct), which it may or may not be, you are OK.


I don't think that's correct in effect. Clubs pay an affiliation fee to the RYA that is linked to the number of members. Class associations don't. They may pay a fee to have their rules managed by the RYA or WS but I'm not sure that is "affiliation". The RYA website uses the word "managed" not "affiliated" to describe National classes.


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 5:30am
Originally posted by turnturtle

if other members of the class are signing on using the class association, do the same.... if they are not, simply put RYA in the box.  It's not like they are going to check with the RYA if you are a member or not is it?  

Sure, technically this is 'cheating'

And morally it is free-loading on the rest of us who pay in one form or another for the administration of the sport. You may entertain warm and fuzzy feelings towards cheats and free-loaders but I don't.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 6:38am
Originally posted by blueboy


Originally posted by Brass


Originally posted by Rupert

I don't think so. It's all somewhere in the rules, can't remember the wording offhand.
Rule 75 
ENTERING A RACE
75.1 To enter a race, a boat shall comply with the requirements of the organizing authority of the race. She shall be entered by
(a) a member of a club or other organization affiliated to a World Sailing member national authority,
(b) such a club or organization, or
(c) a member of a World Sailing member national authority.
Provided that you class association is affiliated with RYA (or WS direct), which it may or may not be, you are OK.
I don't think that's correct in effect. Clubs pay an affiliation fee to the RYA that is linked to the number of members. Class associations don't. They may pay a fee to have their rules managed by the RYA or WS but I'm not sure that is "affiliation". The RYA website uses the word "managed" not "affiliated" to describe National classes.


I'm not familiar with the arcana of the RYA constitution.

If Class Associations are not affiliated with RYA, then he's not OK is he?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 9:01am
Originally posted by blueboy

Clubs pay an affiliation fee to the RYA that is linked to the number of members. Class associations don't. They may pay a fee to have their rules managed by the RYA or WS but I'm not sure that is "affiliation". The RYA website uses the word "managed" not "affiliated" to describe National classes.


I don't think you're correct, but as my current CA is affiliated to the Canoe NA not the RYA I can't check the accounts for detail.

According to this page:
http://www.rya.org.uk/membership/for-clubs-and-associations/Pages/how-to-affiliate-to-the-rya.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.rya.org.uk/membership/for-clubs-and-associations/Pages/how-to-affiliate-to-the-rya.aspx
There is definitely an affiliation process for Class Associations, and I'm very very sure that is quite separate to the National Class/Rule Management stuff. I believe you need to be an affiliated class to get CA rates at Sailboat. Its not hard at all to become an affiliated organisation, I think you just have to pay the fee, demonstrate you have a few members and that our organisation isn't totally unacceptable.

The application for for affiliation looks like this:


Application for RYA Affiliation

Affiliation Criteria

An organisation is eligible to apply for affiliation to the RYA if it is interested in furthering the objects of the RYA. http://www.rya.org.uk/aboutus/howwework/Pages/MembershipMatters.aspx" rel="nofollow - Articles of Association of the RYA and Membership Regulations

Types of Membership available for ‘not for profit’ organisations
•     Affiliated Club
•     Affiliated Class Association
•     Affiliated Organisation:
o     Association of Affiliated Clubs
o     Berth Holder Association
o     Registered Charity, other than a club
o     Regatta Committee
o     Other organisation

Organisations that carry on business on a commercial basis will normally be offered ‘Restricted Affiliation’ (Restricted Membership) How to Affiliate to the RYA

Declaration

By signing this form, the organisation agrees that:
•     The contact information given for the organisation and the main contact will be made available to the general public via the RYA website unless indicated otherwise;
•     It will participate in the RYA Annual Club Membership Census;
•     It will participate in the RYA Club Facilities Survey if appropriate, and the RYA Club Audit, as requested;
•     It will provide other information as requested periodically by the RYA;
•     If it organises sailing races then it will do so in accordance with the racing rules of World Sailing and Royal Yachting Association prescriptions thereto; and
•     If it organises powerboat races then it will do so in accordance with the racing rules of the Union Internationale Motonautique and the general competition rules of the Royal Yachting Association.
Checklist
     Completed affiliation application form
     Copy of Constitution attached
     Copy of Class Rules attached (Class Associations only)
     Copy of most recent set of accounts (unless in first year of operation)



Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 9:33am
At one time I was involving in running the class association of a National class and iirc we were not affiliated.

I have looked but cannot locate a list of affiliated organisations.


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 10:11am
It's quite clear now thanks as the rules of private members clubs state in law when entering an event one you agree to abide by there rules but too you are a temporary member for the period of the event.

I'm not sure why to started this "discussion" since you've decided to ignore everything you've been told here - that your statement above is clearly not true - other than perhaps to get a chance to tell us how you don't want to join a club or the RYA. 


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by blueboy

Originally posted by turnturtle

if other members of the class are signing on using the class association, do the same.... if they are not, simply put RYA in the box.  It's not like they are going to check with the RYA if you are a member or not is it?  

Sure, technically this is 'cheating'

And morally it is free-loading on the rest of us who pay in one form or another for the administration of the sport. You may entertain warm and fuzzy feelings towards cheats and free-loaders but I don't.

fair point... maybe I'd take a stronger view for serial offenders, but I'd encourage one or two events a year with a blind eye turned if it helped boost numbers and potentially resulted in another full fee paying body in a year or two.  


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 3:40pm
Or offer an enhanced entry fee for non RYA/affiliated club members. This might have to be with advance entries only because it's difficult for clubs to offer daily 'membership' as licensing regs often require a 48 hour period between application and membership.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 5:13pm
My understanding has always been that CA membership isn't enough.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 28 Feb 17 at 5:53pm
To be fair to the OP to race most classes you have to be a CA member as well as either an RYA personal member or RYA affiliated club member so it seems like you're paying twice (and again for the actual event entry). 


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 1:42pm
Paying for CA membership actively supports the class of boat you sail and this helps give the class a voice with the builders and the RYA (if affiliated).

As I understand it being a CA member does not cover you as an RYA or RYA affiliated member for the purposes of entering an open meeting. For the simple reason the not all CAs are RYA/WS affiliated and their affiliation is different to a clubs affiliation.

Some club do offer temporary or short term membership for events but this is usually different to being a 'guest' during an event.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by jeffers

As I understand it being a CA member does not cover you as an RYA or RYA affiliated member for the purposes of entering an open meeting.

Its funny, I had that understanding too, but from doing some sketchy looking up recently, from the RRS point of view I don't see why it should be. I don't know if its to do with the Yotty concept of reciprocal privileges between clubs, but that sort of nonsense doesn't come into my life!
If anyone's really concerned they could check with the RYA rules query service.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by JimC

If anyone's really concerned they could check with the RYA rules query service.


wouldn't you have to be a personal member of the RYA to use it though ??? LOL


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by jeffers

As I understand it being a CA member does not cover you as an RYA or RYA affiliated member for the purposes of entering an open meeting.

Its funny, I had that understanding too, but from doing some sketchy looking up recently, from the RRS point of view I don't see why it should be. I don't know if its to do with the Yotty concept of reciprocal privileges between clubs, but that sort of nonsense doesn't come into my life!
If anyone's really concerned they could check with the RYA rules query service.

I might drop the RYA a question (being chair of a CA it would be a legitimate question I feel).


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by jeffers

As I understand it being a CA member does not cover you as an RYA or RYA affiliated member for the purposes of entering an open meeting.

Its funny, I had that understanding too, but from doing some sketchy looking up recently, from the RRS point of view I don't see why it should be. I don't know if its to do with the Yotty concept of reciprocal privileges between clubs, but that sort of nonsense doesn't come into my life!
If anyone's really concerned they could check with the RYA rules query service.

I might drop the RYA a question (being chair of a CA it would be a legitimate question I feel).


but only send their response to RYA members via PM.... otherwise the rest of them are just freeloading ;-)


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by jeffers

As I understand it being a CA member does not cover you as an RYA or RYA affiliated member for the purposes of entering an open meeting.

Its funny, I had that understanding too, but from doing some sketchy looking up recently, from the RRS point of view I don't see why it should be. I don't know if its to do with the Yotty concept of reciprocal privileges between clubs, but that sort of nonsense doesn't come into my life!
If anyone's really concerned they could check with the RYA rules query service.

I might drop the RYA a question (being chair of a CA it would be a legitimate question I feel).


but only send their response to RYA members via PM.... otherwise the rest of them are just freeloading ;-)

I have to be a personal member anyway as I am an instructor so they can't get out of that. Failing that i will just go bother them at the Show on Sunday.



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Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 3:32pm
make sure you take your membership card.... they'l be checking for the freeloaders 



Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 3:33pm
as a viable alternative:  £45 quid for single membership.... no duties either.

http://www.cnyc.co.uk/about-us/


Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 6:55pm
Interesting but they would have to be an RYA Affiliated club for this to work. No mention of this on their website.

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Merlin Rocket 3609


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 7:17pm
I don't think it would be hard to find an RYA affiliated club that has a country membership or similar with fee under 45 quid.

Indeed my own club has an Associate membership at 36 quid for former full members. It doesn't give rights to sail, only to use shore facilities. No doubt plenty of other clubs do something similar. I don't see why that sort of thing shouln't be good enough for the RRS because it does put you in the chain of accepting the auhority of RYA and ISAF/WS

http://www.islandbarn.org.uk/index.php/membership/about-membership/41-membership-classes


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by Time Lord

Interesting but they would have to be an RYA Affiliated club for this to work. No mention of this on their website.

When they set up in 2013 they had, according to YBW.com, "contacted the RYA with a view to affiliate membership".

Can't see they won't have go it and, as far as I can see many clubs don't mention it in their literature/website unless they are a training centre.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 01 Mar 17 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by jeffers

As I understand it being a CA member does not cover you as an RYA or RYA affiliated member for the purposes of entering an open meeting.

Its funny, I had that understanding too, but from doing some sketchy looking up recently, from the RRS point of view I don't see why it should be. I don't know if its to do with the Yotty concept of reciprocal privileges between clubs, but that sort of nonsense doesn't come into my life!
If anyone's really concerned they could check with the RYA rules query service.
RRS 75.1 is the World Sailing rule that applies and refers to the person who enters a boat who typically is required to be "a member of a club or other organisation affiliated to a World Sailing member national authority".

NOR or SI can impose other requirements, as can Class Association rules, for example:
  • NOR/SI might impose requirements on 'persons in charge', or crews;
  • Some Class Associations have a rule that crew must be members of the CA.
I suggest that you have a look at some typical NOR/SI.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 9:07am
True but the NOR/SI can't remove the obligation to abide by rule 75.1 can it?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 9:17am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

True but the NOR/SI can't remove the obligation to abide by rule 75.1 can it?
No, NOR/SI cannot change rule 75 (rule 86.1).

But that doesn't impose any obligation on an OA/RC to do anything to enforce rule 75.1.


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 9:59am
Originally posted by turnturtle

as a viable alternative:  £45 quid for single membership.... no duties either.

http://www.cnyc.co.uk/about-us/

Or you could be a personal RYA member for the same.


-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 10:01am
Originally posted by PeterG

Originally posted by turnturtle

as a viable alternative:  £45 quid for single membership.... no duties either.

http://www.cnyc.co.uk/about-us/

Or you could be a personal RYA member for the same.

not if you have a pathological hatred for the RYA... which the OP appears to have.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 10:03am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by PeterG

Originally posted by turnturtle

as a viable alternative:  £45 quid for single membership.... no duties either.

http://www.cnyc.co.uk/about-us/

Or you could be a personal RYA member for the same.

not if you have a pathological hatred for the RYA... which the OP appears to have.

Either way some of their hard earned will end up with the RYA if they join an affiliated club or class association.


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 10:23am
indeed- but it's like banking with Barclays and funding terrorism.  You're a stage or two away from going full Lord of War



Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 1:18pm
OK, if you buy my fleet deal on Bic Technos you can have this AK-47 for when the cadets get out of line?

-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

True but the NOR/SI can't remove the obligation to abide by rule 75.1 can it?
No, NOR/SI cannot change rule 75 (rule 86.1).

But that doesn't impose any obligation on an OA/RC to do anything to enforce rule 75.1.
But if a boat protested another boat for failing to comply with rule 75.1 then a PC would have to hear that protest, and if they found the protest to be valid and that the protested boat had indeed failed to comply with 75.1 then they would have to disqualify it wouldn't they?

Also a potentially interesting debate to be had about whether it is an improper action or omission of the RC or OA to not enforce rule 75.1 if they know that a boat is non-compliant.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by PeterG

OK, if you buy my fleet deal on Bic Technos you can have this AK-47 for when the cadets get out of line?

[tube]fAHXosoNlvo[/tube]


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by GML

Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

True but the NOR/SI can't remove the obligation to abide by rule 75.1 can it?
No, NOR/SI cannot change rule 75 (rule 86.1).

But that doesn't impose any obligation on an OA/RC to do anything to enforce rule 75.1.
But if a boat protested another boat for failing to comply with rule 75.1 then a PC would have to hear that protest, and if they found the protest to be valid and that the protested boat had indeed failed to comply with 75.1 then they would have to disqualify it wouldn't they?

Indeed they would.

What sort of evidence do you think a protesting boat might bring to prove that the person who entered another boat was not qualified under rule 75.1, or indeed, who the 'person who entered the boat' was?

Also a potentially interesting debate to be had about whether it is an improper action or omission of the RC or OA to not enforce rule 75.1 if they know that a boat is non-compliant.

You could have a debate about whether a race committee should protest a boat, or whether they should have checked membership before accepting an entry, but that's different from whether it is an 'improper action' not to do so.

See rule 60.

An OA has no status to protest a boat at all, although an OA might direct a RC to take some action (rule 90.1)

A RC may protest a boat (rule 60.2( a )).  This implies that, at it's discretion, a race committee may choose not to protest a boat.




Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 2:52pm
Yup, the RRS are generally enforced by the competitors themselves, it's only at large events where jury boats are empowered to enforce the RRS. It may be tho only sport that does this (I can't think of another anyhow).


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Yup, the RRS are generally enforced by the competitors themselves, it's only at large events where jury boats are empowered to enforce the RRS. It may be tho only sport that does this (I can't think of another anyhow).


Golf?


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 3:01pm
Smile I knew there had to be one...... However Golf is not a 'sport' I have had any contact with (thankfully).


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 3:09pm
Actually I think its almost any sport at amateur level that doesn't involve teams. Don't see many umpires on the Tennis courts in the local rec, or at the Squash courts in the Sports centre for example.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 3:18pm
But, unlike sailing, there will be a umpire for any organised tournament, however small/low key. Two people playing an informal game on the municipal courts (or even a 'friendly' game at the Tennis club) is more akin to us just going for a blast about down at the lake when there is no racing.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

But, unlike sailing, there will be a umpire for any organised tournament, however small/low key. Two people playing an informal game on the municipal courts (or even a 'friendly' game at the Tennis club) is more akin to us just going for a blast about down at the lake when there is no racing.

or a PY race ... sort of like a competitive pastime rather than a real sporting experience.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 4:05pm
LOL


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 02 Mar 17 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

But, unlike sailing, there will be a umpire for any organised tournament, however small/low key. Two people playing an informal game on the municipal courts (or even a 'friendly' game at the Tennis club) is more akin to us just going for a blast about down at the lake when there is no racing.

Not true. You have to be an LTA member to play league tennis, but it is not necessary or common to have an umpire at matches, even/especially junior matches. Unfortunately there are always some kids who take terrible advantage of this, but it teaches a valuable lesson I suppose.



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