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Club racing, multiple entries.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12599
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 10:25am
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Topic: Club racing, multiple entries.
Posted By: piglet
Subject: Club racing, multiple entries.
Date Posted: 21 Dec 16 at 3:05pm
I'm curious,
Do any clubs allow competitors to count series results sailed in different boats/rigs.



Replies:
Posted By: PaulPoshW
Date Posted: 21 Dec 16 at 3:37pm
Our club allow the use of different rigs but the fastest PY would be used for all set-ups and it relies on the sailor signing on as the faster boat even when using the smaller rig. If they sign on with different rigs on different days it is counted as a separate entry




Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Dec 16 at 3:40pm
We had this discussion a while back, and the answer seemed to be "quite a few".


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 21 Dec 16 at 4:28pm
That came up at our club just recently. My Wife and I ran a series but we didn't compile the results. The different rigs were pointed out but the person who compiled/published them didn't think it mattered.......I'm in no rush to volunteer as sailing secretary so I'll not argue. LOL




Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Dec 16 at 5:07pm
We used to, but some felt it was unfair.

I believe we are going to allow Lasers to change rigs, but only to smaller. So, if you use a Radial first race, you can use a 4.7, on a Radial handicap. The problem with using a larger rig would be having to retrospectively change previous race results.

I guess we shall see what happens.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 21 Dec 16 at 5:29pm
As said by Jim this has been talked through before.

Seems to me it is very much "horses for courses" although that metaphor probably only adds to the contention in this question.

All depends on what the objective of the racing / series is. If a small easy going Club trying to encourage turnout then multiple boat and rig combinations seems acceptable to most. Larger Clubs with strong fleets may well favour a more purist approach. Although more work for those inputting results some run a dual scoring system, strictly allocating points to the one boat and another allocating points to the person regardless of boat or even if they are crew or helm.

edit typos.


Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 21 Dec 16 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by PaulPoshW

Our club allow the use of different rigs but the fastest PY would be used for all set-ups and it relies on the sailor signing on as the faster boat even when using the smaller rig.



This has been done locally to me not that i club race, and i feel it is more unfair than someone using two totally different boats for crew availability reasons for example

When you stick with one rig for a whole series your PY in theory reflects the fact that some days you have too much sail and some too little, and it should average out as the PY should be based on average conditions too

If you optimise rigs to the conditions your PY should be lower than the fastest rig available as you are never having the days when your boat is out of its optimal conditions


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 21 Dec 16 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by MattK

 

This has been done locally to me not that i club race, and i feel it is more unfair than someone using two totally different boats for crew availability reasons for example

When you stick with one rig for a whole series your PY in theory reflects the fact that some days you have too much sail and some too little, and it should average out as the PY should be based on average conditions too

If you optimise rigs to the conditions your PY should be lower than the fastest rig available as you are never having the days when your boat is out of its optimal conditions


A lot of folk feel that way.

In my experience the decision to flaunt the the PY system in this way is quite often based on sailing snobbery, ie:   It's only a handicap race and therefore doesn't mean anything anyway.

While I would agree it's not as significant as the Burton cup (say) it does mean something. If handicap racing is the only dinghy racing that's available for a significant number of people it should be treated with respect IMO.


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 21 Dec 16 at 11:26pm
I had assumed in my ignorance that 1boat=1entry was the status quo everywhere.
Is this underpinned in the RRS? (& where?)

I do know of one club that voted to trial Laser down-rigging.
Not sure how successful it's been.


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 22 Dec 16 at 5:31pm
We allow it.

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OK 2129
RS200 411


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Dec 16 at 6:53pm
We've had this discussion recently IIRC. Either way my new club said they would treat it as two separate entries of I used the Blaze and Fire rigs during the same series. Not quite the same thing but I did some class racing crewing in a pals Merlin a few years ago, he let me helm one race as at his club the points all accrue to the boat not the helm.


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 22 Dec 16 at 7:13pm
Moral maze:
Crew changes are generally accepted
Crew/Helm swap over might be accepted
Different helms same boat?
Different boats same helm?

Craiggo, do some competitors use this to advantage?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Dec 16 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by piglet

I had assumed in my ignorance that 1boat=1entry


The default position, AIUI, is indeed one boat, one entry, **no matter who is sailing the boat**. Which would give the prospect of, I dunno, lets say Team KitKat class,turning up with three boats with different sized rigs and 4 crews and helms of varying weights, and rotating the ideal sized crew/helm into each boat for the expected conditions in that race... But this is normally changed in NOR/SIs for small boat racing.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Dec 16 at 9:41pm
I can't see a reason to disallow a helm and crew swapping roles, in many boats the crews job is more involved than the helm. Likewise having multiple crews over the course of a series will be a disadvantage in many boats (maybe not in an Enterprise with an 8 year old in the light stuff and a gorilla when it blows :))


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 22 Dec 16 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by piglet

I had assumed in my ignorance that 1boat=1entry was the status quo everywhere. 
Is this underpinned in the RRS? (& where?) 
Generally the RRS are about 'boats'

A boat is entered in a race by a member of a club or other organization affiliated to an ISAF
member national authority, such a club or organization, or a member of an ISAF member national authority. (rule 75.1)

I do know of one club that voted to trial Laser down-rigging.

Laser Class Rules specifically prohibit changing rigs during a series (Laser Class Rules 28( d ) and 29( d ).

If a club and its members choose not to enforce this rule that's fine until a protest or an appeal comes along.

My observation has been that the Radial/4.7 downsize comes mainly with Grand Masters, who are smart enough to want to make the choice between having a nice sail in 20 kts with the 4.7 or getting beaten up with the Radial.  Makes sense to me.

Using highest PY makes sense to me.  I think it would be very rare that a 4.7 would be faster round the course than a Radial:  it's not like the 1, 2, and 3 rigs on an 18 footer.
Not sure how successful it's been.


Originally posted by piglet

Moral maze:
Crew changes are generally accepted
Crew/Helm swap over might be accepted
Different helms same boat?
Different boats same helm?

Craiggo, do some competitors use this to advantage?

The RRS themselves don't say anything about helming or 'skippering' except that a boat shall have on board a person in charge designated by the member or organization that entered the boat (rule 46).

Restrictions on crew and helm changes are usually imposed by SI.

Some snotty yotti clubs get positively hydrophobic about anybody but a member who is the owner steering a boat.

Some clubs, in various guises run 'personal' pointscores.

It would seem consistent with the Laser ethos that the boat is irrelevant and it's the driver that counts.



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Dec 16 at 11:34pm
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 23 Dec 16 at 4:43pm
I haven't come across anyone changing boats for advantage. A fair few of us at the club have a doublehander and a singlehander and if our crews aren't available we take our singlehanders out. We had a few Laser sailors who switched down a rig size on windy days but to be honest they aren't Laser circuit standard sailors so it's good just keep them on the water having fun, and they probably won't be in the chocolates anyway. I haven't come across any obvious cheating. The only thing you have to be careful with is that before you submit the results to the RYA pys you need to create separate entries for each boat or it messes up the returns. I did ask the sailwave guys to look at doing an update that allowed for this but it's low down on the properties list.

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OK 2129
RS200 411


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Dec 16 at 11:00pm
I've swapped boats in such a way that I've had an advantage. If I hadn't swapped boats, I'd have either been watching, or upside down. As it is, I've won. The joys of family Topper ownership!

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Dec 16 at 11:11pm
I sailed the Spice solo at the las event this year, in light airs I won on the Saturday (by a minute on corrected time), F3-4 on Sunday and I did end living up the the boats monika the "Yellow Upside Down Boat".....


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 24 Dec 16 at 7:54am
We have an uneasy truce on the use of 4.7's, unless that is your class of course.
This is my fault, I did a race a while back in extreme wind and won by a ridiculous margin. It didn't count in my series though.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Dec 16 at 9:29am
Originally posted by piglet

It didn't count in my series though.


It all boils down to this. Is your club so short of qualifiers for series that they need to include every race everyone sails in order to get some prizes given out? I don't think anyone objects to people swapping boats or rigs rather than sitting on the shore, but is it worth distorting the rest of the series results?

I used to believe it was worth it. Now, I don't. If people want to put a series together, they need to take the rough with the smooth. If they want to chop and change to suit the weather, they have to accept they are racing for that one result.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Dec 16 at 10:35am
I think, though, these days there are fewer and fewer folk who are able to put a series together, so there's a strong desire to include as many as possible. It would be good to have some kind of format that worked for people who can't do many races, but didn't simply result in giving 4 times as many prizes to the same people. Never thought of one though.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Dec 16 at 11:33am
Maybe most people just don't look at things in terms of series any more? Maybe we should just run races, and at the end of the season give prizes based on all the races, fastest on water, handicap, handicap bands, personal handicaps, some "spot races" prizes.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Dec 16 at 12:21pm
I used to race with an eye on the series result but, at the moment at least, I'm happy taking it race by race (not that I expect to be troubling the front of the fleet anytime soon). I think there used to be a 'regatta week' at RWBSC (my holiday club in my teens) and at Llanfwrog S. C. we have a trophy for a pursuit race aggregate (over about 4 races during the year) but mostly each day/weekend's racing is a self contained event with it's own trophy. 


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Dec 16 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by JimC

I think, though, these days there are fewer and fewer folk who are able to put a series together, so there's a strong desire to include as many as possible. It would be good to have some kind of format that worked for people who can't do many races, but didn't simply result in giving 4 times as many prizes to the same people. Never thought of one though.
Some ideas.

Generally, run shorter series, to benefit the 'time-poor'

Split your main series into Spring and Summer series.

Run several series of 5 or 6 races on consecutive weeks (for those that can negotiate short periods from home but not a whole season).

Run one or more series of races scheduled once a month (first Saturday or whatever), for those who can't spare consecutive weekends.

Nothing will stop those who become the club's best sailors by sailing in the most races from winning, but series like the above give good sailors with time constraints a chance.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Dec 16 at 12:36pm
We do all the above, but qualifiers still short, have been for decades, I guess, never really bothered anyone except the person in charge of trophies (me about 10 years ago for 3 years) so long as there are people to race on the day.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 02 Jan 17 at 7:31am
Good discussion of boat vs helm (but not different rigs) in RYA Appeal 1990/2

The racing rules do not differentiate between helmsman and crew. Restrictions on the helming of a boat may be imposed by class rules or by the notice of race. In the absence of any other provision, an owner or person in charge is free to invite anyone to steer the boat. The notice of race and the sailing instructions must state clearly when points are to be awarded to helmsmen rather than to boats and state any restrictions or qualifications that apply.

Worth a read in full.



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