Towing on new license
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Repair & maintenance
Forum Discription: Questions & tips on the subject
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12579
Printed Date: 16 Apr 24 at 4:23pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Towing on new license
Posted By: piglet
Subject: Towing on new license
Date Posted: 29 Nov 16 at 1:52pm
|
We don't have a section for towing.
Anyway, this doesn't affect me as I'm old. But for the benefit of our less old sailors (& my sons)
I can't make sense of the DVLA towing entitlements for licenses issued after 2007/2013:
Either I'm thick or it should just say:
Vehicle up to 3500Kg MAM
Vehicle + trailer up to 4250Kg combined MAM
DVLA website states:
- drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
- tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg
|
Replies:
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 29 Nov 16 at 2:43pm
|
No, if the trailer weighs more than 750 then the total mass, trailer and car/van must be less than 3.5T
-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
|
Posted By: RobT
Date Posted: 29 Nov 16 at 2:52pm
It's not the trailer weight - it's the maximum permissable weight. So an empty RIB trailer (braked) plated for 1,200kg you would not be allowed to tow.
|
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 29 Nov 16 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by PeterG
No, if the trailer weighs more than 750 then the total mass, trailer and car/van must be less than 3.5T |
Thank you Peter, so my not quite so simple simplification now reads:
Vehicle up to 3500Kg MAM
Vehicle + trailer up to 4250Kg combined MAM, Where trailer MAM is less than 750Kg
Vehicle + trailer up to 3500Kg combined MAM, Where trailer MAM is more than 750Kg
So using Robs 1200Kg plated Rib trailer, empty or loaded, the MAM of the towing vehicle must not exceed 2300Kg.
Have I got this right now?
|
Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 29 Nov 16 at 10:35pm
|
don't forget about maximum towing weights the vehicle permits
so for a seat arosa for example
| Unbraked Towing Weight | - |
|---|
| Braked Towing Weight | 650kg |
|---|
not quite sure it cant tow anything unbraked though
considering its kerb weight is 840kg i would presume it should do 420kg
although i've towed around 250kg with a 1.1L and while it was ok i wouldn't go anymore than that
|
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 29 Nov 16 at 10:50pm
VW give 450Kg unbraked for the Lupo, same thing.
That's enough for most small dinghies.
Just as well really, costs for getting a B+E test are £500++
But if you can tow up to 3.5T combined then that covers most recreational activities. Except horses I guess.
|
Posted By: ROG
Date Posted: 07 Jan 17 at 9:29am
Originally posted by piglet
VW give 450Kg unbraked for the Lupo, same thing.
That's enough for most small dinghies.
Just as well really, costs for getting a B+E test are £500++
But if you can tow up to 3.5T combined then that covers most recreational activities. Except horses I guess. |
1 horse can be towed on a B licence with the right vehicle and down plated trailer
Example
Skoda Octavia 4x4
GVW 1998
Tow max 2000
Trailer 1700 but down plated via manufacturer to 1500
Trailer empty 700
Max load for trailer 800
|
Posted By: ROG
Date Posted: 07 Jan 17 at 9:30am
I hope this rather long post will be useful ........
Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained
Licensing laws are based on plated weights not actual weights.
GVW, MAM or MTPLM means maximum permissible legal weight when fully loaded.
The towing vehicle GVW can be obtained from the V5 registered keepers form listed as maximum permissible mass, the handbook, or a plate somewhere on the vehicle – usually under bonnet or hidden in a door frame – the top figure is always the GVW.
Towing capacity (manufacturer actual towing weight limit) – not legally enforceable in the RTA but based on safety and engine power under certain conditions.
GTW - the max legal weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
In most cases, the GVW added to the towing capacity will also be the GTW.
The trailer info can be obtained from a plate on the trailer, by calling the trailer manufacturer, or on the internet. If no plate then the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating will be used by the authorities to determine the MAM to a maximum of 3500 even if the total is more than that.
There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths on this.
The only legally recognised way to down plate a trailer of 3500 kgs MAM or less is to contact the trailer manufacturer usually at very little cost.
The laws/rules are these for both B+E & B licence towing.
The GVW of the vehicle must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The GTW must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The plated MAM of the trailer must not be exceeded (RTA law).
The towing capacity should not be exceeded (can be prosecutable under C&U regulation 100).
The lower of the trailer MAM or the towing capacity must/should be used as the maximum actual weight when loaded.
For B licence towing with a trailer over 750 kgs MAM.
The vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM must not exceed 3500 kg (RTA law)
EXAMPLE
Vehicle
GVW 2050 kg
Towing capacity 1700 kg
GTW 3750 kg
Trailer
Un-laden/empty 700 kg
MAM 2000 kg
For B+E licence towing the trailer can be loaded with 1000 kgs because 1000+700=1700 kg which is the towing capacity.
For B licence towing the trailer would need down plating from 2000 kgs to a maximum of 1450 kg.
The reason is that 1450+2050=3500 which is the maximum allowed for B licence towing.
The trailer can be loaded with 750 kg because 750+700=1450 kg which is the trailer MAM.
Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing advice.
SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving
The B+E test
No medical or theory test required
Read a number plate from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqw6Ua3kmFc&feature=related - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise = http://www.drivesafedriving.co.uk/b_e_rev_movie.htm - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/68791/LGV_PCV_BE_manoeuvring_exercise_area_diagram.pdf
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_5KOe8dGg&feature=related - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
One hour road drive - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test
The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer = https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles
Well explained here = http://www.trailertraining-wales.co.uk/test.html
DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos
This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED – a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test that means you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself.
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS = http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.
|
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by ROG
There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths on this.
|
Thank you Rog, good reading.
I note with interest your point on vehicle capacities vs trailer GVW.
I couldn't find a definitive answer to this other than heresay and speculation.
Argueing the point on the roadside with a 'scaley' might be difficult.
|
Posted By: ROG
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by piglet
Originally posted by ROG
There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths on this.
|
Thank you Rog, good reading.
I note with interest your point on vehicle capacities vs trailer GVW.
I couldn't find a definitive answer to this other than heresay and speculation.
Argueing the point on the roadside with a 'scaley' might be difficult. |
The reason you cannot find anything is because there is no such law or rule stating that the plated MAM (weight law) cannot exceed the manufacturers max towing capacity (C&D law)
That means a driver cannot be charged or prosecuted with a non existent law
|
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 6:06pm
|
Caravan club have a comprehensive section on towing and the law, just go on their website, cut out the myths and urban legends
|
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 6:31pm
|
Yeah. I have read some stuff on there. Mostly informative but opinion divided on some points. Towing capacity Vs trailer GVW being one.
|
Posted By: ROG
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by 423zero
Caravan club have a comprehensive section on towing and the law, just go on their website, cut out the myths and urban legends |
If you mean this - https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/advice-and-training/advice-for-beginners/driving-licences/ - then it is out of date
|
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 10:43am
Posted By: ROG
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 11:10am
Originally posted by piglet
Which bits wrong Rog? |
...the trailer MAM must not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle...
That was revoked on 19/01/2013 - 4 years ago!
|
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 12:39pm
|
Oh yes, found it. That could come into play when moving empty RIB trailers with smaller cars.
Given that most of our combis are unplated, what's the method for deriving the GVW of a combi.
I read somewhere it's the sum of the tyre ratings.
|
Posted By: ROG
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by piglet
Oh yes, found it. That could come into play when moving empty RIB trailers with smaller cars.
Given that most of our combis are unplated, what's the method for deriving the GVW of a combi.
I read somewhere it's the sum of the tyre ratings. |
Tyre load rating totals are used as the MAM where no weight plate exists
|
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 13 Jan 17 at 12:15am
|
ROG are you the ROG of towing threads elsewhere fame ?
|
Posted By: ROG
Date Posted: 13 Jan 17 at 8:00am
Originally posted by zippyRN
ROG are you the ROG of towing threads elsewhere fame ? |
Yes I am especially the 3000+ post one on the horse and hounds site
|
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 14 Jan 17 at 2:09am
Originally posted by ROG
Originally posted by zippyRN
ROG are you the ROG of towing threads elsewhere fame ? |
Yes I am especially the 3000+ post one on the horse and hounds site |
you are a glutton for punishment
at least Y+Y only has one 'powerfully built' type though i'm unsure of his goatee status
|
|