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Double Hander for Father / Son combo

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12387
Printed Date: 24 Oct 17 at 7:03am
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Topic: Double Hander for Father / Son combo
Posted By: Doctor D
Subject: Double Hander for Father / Son combo
Date Posted: 11 May 16 at 9:22pm
I'm considering options for a double hander for me and my seven year old son.

He's done a fair bit of crewing in a Vibe with me (and a little light wind helming). Having recently been out in a slightly more spritely single hander with me I think he's going to want to go a bit faster when properly 2 up.

I weigh just over 80kg (just under 6ft) and he's a typical 7 year old stick insect (twice the weight when wet).

It would be sailed on a small pond most of the time with occasional trips to Lake District and Bala.

Thinking at the moment is a Laser 3000 - fairly cheap, stable, can sail it on your own.
What are they like on capsize recovery and could he helm and me crew in light winds?

Anything else anyone thinks is worth a look at?

Cheap and cheerful solutions sought as I may well be getting him his own single hander before too long as well.

Thanks.



Replies:
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 11 May 16 at 9:48pm
When mine were that age we had a lot of fun in an old 420.


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 11 May 16 at 10:19pm
Get a Graduate, great parent/child boat. My 8yr old crews for me in ours (I'm 84kg). A good proportion of the fleet are families of similar ages, which makes for a great atmosphere at events like the nationals. My daughter has helmed our boat in light breezes but I only have a 1:1 mainsheet, with a 2:1 tail it would be a piece of cake. They are well suited to small ponds but equally at home on larger expanses of water. You should be able to find a good boat for under 1000.

-------------
Graduate 2928
OK 2071


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 May 16 at 8:24am
Sounds like you want a bit more whizz than the usual suggestions (I grew up sailing a Firefly). The 3000 is a cheap way of going fast, though you will need to take care with the weather. They don't have any sort of air gap when turtled, so you will need to plan for capsizes well, & I'd suggest using a masthead float.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 12 May 16 at 9:21am
I would wait until he is a teenager before getting a 3000. (Great boats that they are, you need some weight and strength up front to get the best out of them).

If you want a quick 2-hander, suited to having a light-weight up front, then you should definitely consider an (older) National 12.


Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 12 May 16 at 8:41pm
In your position I bought a miracle, its a great parent and child boat, plus the nipper can learn the age old skill of flying symmetric kite. My daighter is now a whizz with the kite. the boat is not over canvassed which does mean its not that fast, but it it easy to control, and means you can pretty much go out in any weather and not spend the day swimming. its also light to handle on shore which I have found helpful when sailing with kids as they normally head of for crisps and pop when the boat needs dragging up the beach. As it happens I have a miracle for sale, as we are moving up to a scorpion


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 4:08pm
The Grad looks like a good choice - maybe not as fast as others, but probably the right boat for us. It's a shame there's so few around.

At this point I think a symmetric is beyond us so a Miracle isn't the right choice.

Don't know much about National 12's other than there seem to be an endless variety of them. I'll do a bit of research - meanwhile I'll keep looking for a recent Grad.




Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 6:11pm
Miracle would be my recommendation. Start without the spinnaker then something to move on. Good fleets in the north west too.
3840 is for sale all plastic boat so no maintainace and a good price

-------------
(Redoubt Sc)
Miracle 4040
GP14 13407

Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com


Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by Doctor D



At this point I think a symmetric is beyond us so a Miracle isn't the right choice.




You dont need to use the spinnaker at first, but it will give you something to grow into. As Neal mentions there are a quite a few sailing in the northwest,



Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 9:32pm
Grads sailing at Chester SC, Bolton SC, Southport SC, Ogston SC, Todbrook SC and there are others in the area.

At least you can sail to handicap straight away, if you aren't flying the kite in a miracle you may as well not bother!

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Graduate 2928
OK 2071


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 9:42pm
That's pretty much my thinking. Will be driven on whether a suitable boat appears...


Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 15 May 16 at 8:26am
An old grad will be nowhere near on handicap as a new rooster one with all the bells and whistles and big sails depends if you want to race handicap or race against the same class. Seem to remembering hearing that the miracle with kite up is way faster than its handicap but hey that was on this forum. Given some training and pointers you'd be flying the spinnaker in no time

-------------
(Redoubt Sc)
Miracle 4040
GP14 13407

Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com


Posted By: woodham78
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Doctor D

That's pretty much my thinking. Will be driven on whether a suitable boat appears...


What did you end up going for Doctor D?


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 4:25pm
Still haven't as yet...

There was a nice Miracle as mentioned in a post earlier which has gone (at a good price too). Otherwise still looking at something like a Graduate.

There's not too many simple double handed boats around which are suitable for small pond and a small crew.

So, in short, I'm still looking....


Posted By: woodham78
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 4:35pm
Thanks for the update. Yeah, the miracles look good, but I just don't want wood. Quite liking the look of a Comet Duo, but not many of them about either though. There's a couple of Grp grads at our club, but not tried one yet...


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 5:58pm
Depending on what you're looking to do, there's always the roto moulded options - Vision, Feva, Quba, Vago, Pico, Omega, Magno, Vibe , Topaz type stuff..


Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by woodham78

Thanks for the update. Yeah, the miracles look good, but I just don't want wood. Quite liking the look of a Comet Duo, but not many of them about either though. There's a couple of Grp grads at our club, but not tried one yet...


I have an FRP hulled wooden deck Miracle for sale at present (its on the 'duck)could be open to offers. Great combination of maintenance free hull with the great looks of a wooden boat


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 8:00pm
Boat Yard at Beer are going to be building a batch of brand new Grads in August so you could get a new one or get a good 2nd hand one from someone trading up.

-------------
Graduate 2928
OK 2071


Posted By: woodham78
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 8:05pm
Okay, that's interesting to know, thanks.


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 8:17pm
Yes - that's part of the reason that I'm not rushing - see what turns up in a month or three.


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 19 Feb 17 at 7:49am
... or nine!

Still looking and fairly open to grad, miracle. I've now added firefly to the list of possibilities. Unfortunately the main criteria to get on to this list seems to be that there's very little ever on the market!  It has been quiet as you'd expect over the winter. I'm hoping something comes up soon. 

Anything else to put on the list?


Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 19 Feb 17 at 10:09am
There is a good quality miracle on ebay at the minute full road trailer sails and cover. It is wood though. 3849 so not too old.

-------------
(Redoubt Sc)
Miracle 4040
GP14 13407

Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com


Posted By: ChichesterHiss
Date Posted: 19 Feb 17 at 1:35pm
Firefly is good option with a stick insect crew.

Any reason why RS Feva or RS 200 is not on the short list? 


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 19 Feb 17 at 4:04pm
Small pond which doesn't really suit asymmetric kites. Also, Feva is really a yoof boat and I'm a bit long in the tooth!



Posted By: woodham78
Date Posted: 19 Feb 17 at 7:17pm
I bought a Grad (2863) last summer for myself and my 9 year old son to muck about in. I absolutely love it - best thing I did. Sailed it regularly with him, coaxed my 14 yr old daughter out a few times too. Am now sailing every other week with an adult crew (we're probably a bit heavy with us both on board, but she still goes really well in a breeze). I have recently started sailing her single handed too, which has been a blast. She's old, fairly tatty, could do with a new set of sails, but puts a smile on all faces. Only set me back 400. There's a tidier looking one, with an old and also a new rules main (there's three types if you do go for a Grad), up for 350 on the Graduate owners facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1563829960543739/


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 19 Feb 17 at 11:26pm
That one just looks a bit tatty for me and too far away to go and have a look to see..


Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 4:20pm
With the risk of being controversial, how about an Enterprise? I got one to sail with my pre-teenage daughters, and it works fine. Not too much complexity (no kite), and roomy enough, but also speedy enough to sail in light winds. Plus the added bonus that our club uses one in the 12hr Southport, which my kids are very keen to have a go at.

There seems a steady supply of decent Ents for not too much money on eBay, too.


-------------
Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon)


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 4:25pm
Ent's a nice boat. Can be a bit of a handful in a blow without some weight (22 stone is supposed to be optimum) but you won't be racing with him in a real blow will you?


Posted By: ChichesterHiss
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by Doctor D

Small pond which doesn't really suit asymmetric kites. Also, Feva is really a yoof boat and I'm a bit long in the tooth!



Ahhhh Yes. I was trying to think of boats that favored a lightweight all up crew because of your stick insect.  But I understand the added requirement of enough room for ahem "long in the tooth" joints to stretch themselves.
I would not rule out asymmetric due to size of puddle. They dont necessarily take up more pond room than other boats.  I mention this because an asymmetric kite is a lot easier for the stick insect (and for long in the molars Dad) to handle than a traditional spinnaker.  The advantage of the third sail designs is that they can be reasonably fast and exciting downwind (so the insect doesnt get bored) but they are not overpowered for a lighter crew upwind.
The simple math is that a sailing dinghy needs more sail area when it is sailing away from the wind than when it is is sailing towards it.  So the 2 sail dinghy is always a bit of a compromise.  They are either a bit overpowered upwind, or a bit underpowered downwind, or possibly both.  

That said,  the suggestions of Firefly, Graduate and Enterprise are all well proven 2 sail designs that parent and offspring have sailed for decades. We sailed Graduates at school on the river Nene, so many decades ago that my recollections are a bit indistinct. I do recall that with two 16 year old stick insects we were a bit over powered upwind when the breeze picked up.  The Firefly has had a massive resurgence in the last 5 -10 years and we see lots of couples sailing them. It has been made a lot easier for dad since they raised the boom height, giving noticeably more room to duck under the boom without hurting the very nice "feel" that Fireflies have always had.  The more modern fibreglass boats are well laid out. Its smaller than Ent and Graduate. The Enterprise is also a very fine boat. There were thousands in my yoof.

I confess that once you have tasted asyms, its hard to go back. My brother and I split time with a rather well worn 2000 (formerly Laser 2000) that we use to race with either the wife or the offspring. For our serious racing we do other things but the 2000 has been brilliant fun as a family racer. I would be the first to admit that there are better boats out there...but its tough and it does the job. We dont treat it well and it has a few dents but its held up well. Its mildly underpowered upwind which suits my  wife. It has just enough ooomph downwind to keep me from falling asleep. We sail on a narrow tidal estuary so.....pond size is not a problem. Certainly not trying to convince you to get a 2000, but if there are assyms in your local fleets, do not rule them out.




Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 9:01am
Rather than start another very similar thread I thought I'd tag on the back but of this one if that's okay with the OP. Very similar requirements but a younger, lighter crew (5yo). I'm thinking a firefly might be a bit wobbly with such a rounded hull shape so something a bit more boxy/chined might be better.

What is there with suitably light sheet loads that my daughter can do something other than be ballast? I think a Mirror is going to be too small as I'm 6'1" and the wrong side of 16st. But is moving up to a miracle too big for her? Would a Grad be too big for a 5yo? What else is there? I saw a Heron on Facebook the other day and wondered if that might be a good choice? Don't want to spend much more than 500 as it would involve selling my single hander to fund it and I won't be pleased if I do that and then my daughter doesn't like sailing.

I suppose it doesn't even need to be a racing class, something for us to cruise about in Swallows and Amazons style would do for a start.

Cheers,
Kev

-------------
Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 11:39am
No problems using this post as it's a very similar question...

In the absence of suitable boats coming up not at the other end of the country which is too far to take a chance on, I had a chat with our Sailing Sec around using a no kite handicap and the answer in principle was that this as something we could look at. On that basis, I've widened my search and am now looking towards L2K/Miracle. Most likely be the L2K as plastic Miracles are pretty rare.

Now I've widened my net, the number of cheaper L2K's on the market has dropped to zero! Maybe someone's trying to tell me something!


Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 10:14pm
Doc, not sure what your budget is, but there is a pretty nice frp miracle on apolloduck, at the cheaper end of the scale there is a composite one on the miracle owners facebook page, I think they are both in kent though


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 10:31pm
FRP one has sold (and yes, looked a nice one).


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 10:39pm
Round chine boats aren't automatically more unstable than hard chine designs, (an extreme case but the Int Moth is a chine design) it more to do with the form stability. Single chine hulls have more initial stability but it decreases as the chine sinks. Round chined boats do it progressively. The Firefly is not known for it's instability and modern skiffy designs have supplanted the round chine for planing efficiency reasons not stability.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 24 Mar 17 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Round chine boats aren't automatically more unstable than hard chine designs, (an extreme case but the Int Moth is a chine design) it more to do with the form stability. Single chine hulls have more initial stability but it decreases as the chine sinks. Round chined boats do it progressively.

The Glenans Sailing Manuals demonstrate those words well in pictures.
(Anyone remember it?? Mine is circa 1985  Confused.  Nothing modern in there, admittedly but the basic physics of boats/sailing are always going to apply)




Posted By: Ripped50s
Date Posted: 03 Jul 17 at 10:56pm
Just wondering if the OP has bought anything yet and if so where he got to?
I'm just about to return to sailing and introduce our two primary school age kids to the sport and we're going to be sailing in tidal waters so got a very similar dilemma.  

I've been looking for the boats I remember being prevalent when I started out (Miracle, GP14 etc.) but started to broaden the net and find myself looking at Larks, which I raced a lot and used to be comfy single-handing these in modest breezes and Scorpions but my instincts are telling me the latter might need a bit a more muscle than is comfortable with the mini 50s aboard. I'm trying balance that with being able to take Mrs 50s.  

Suddenly a small yacht is looking good! 

What am I missing?


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 03 Jul 17 at 11:19pm
Still looking! Had a little break from single handed sailing and have just sold my D-Zero. Now looking for a Laser 2000. Typically, now I've got my act together, there seems to be a lack of them on the market!


Posted By: Ardea
Date Posted: 04 Jul 17 at 9:20am
The RS200 (as mentioned earlier in the thread) does very similar things to a 2000 and I think is similar money, it will certainly increase the number of potential boats for sale out there.

However with the RS200 over the laser 2000 in my opinion you trade off some stationary stability and load carrying capacity for a bit more speed.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Jul 17 at 10:07am
I would say (though I haven't sailed the RS200) that the 200 is a much racier proposition than the 2000. The 2000 has a little more sail but is longer and nearly twice the weight all up (200kg to the 200's 114kg). I do know of a couple of guys who sail 2ks solo but they're a bit of a lump to handle onshore. The 200 OTOH is probably about the same as a down-to-weight Enterprise when you're hauling it up the slip. A nicer proposition but still a fair bit of boat for one guy to manage if the slipway is at all steep. Quite fancy a 200 myself though I'm probably on the heavy side, my typical crews are 80kg+ and I'm 78kg.....

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Jul 17 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by Ardea

The RS200 (as mentioned earlier in the thread) does very similar things to a 2000


Oh gosh no, I disagree entirely. The RS200 is a pure racing craft for two fairly lightweight sailors, ideally both reasonably experienced and competent.. In many ways it could be considered a National 12 equivalent. The 2000 is a bigger and heavier general purpose boat that will carry more weight and more people, and be much more tolerant of beginners, but isn't nearly so lively a craft as the 200.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 04 Jul 17 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Ardea

The RS200 (as mentioned earlier in the thread) does very similar things to a 2000


Oh gosh no, I disagree entirely. The RS200 is a pure racing craft for two fairly lightweight sailors, ideally both reasonable experience and competent.. In many ways it could be considered a National 12 equivalent. The 2000 is a bigger and heavier general purpose boat that will carry more weight and more people, and be muchmore tolerant of beginners, but isn't nearly so lively a craft as the 200.

+1


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 04 Jul 17 at 5:03pm
RS200 lively / National 12 equivalent?

I sailed the RS200 on the first test sail days with another N12 stalwart at the time. And I can say with authority that the RS200 it is not that lively and nowhere near equivalent to a N12. 

N12 hull shapes, sailed or owned - Wild Front Ear, Baggy Trousers, Crusader, Design 8, Final Chapter, Street Legal, Tigress, Feeling Foolish, Numinous, Big Issue.




-------------
http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: Ripped50s
Date Posted: 05 Jul 17 at 7:46am
Thanks for the extra comments especially the OP whose thread I have mini hijacked. (Sorry)
I've spotted an RS Vision up for sale. It looks like it might just take all of us on a not too lumpy day and it's got a trapeze (eldest will love this I expect) and provide a little room for growth.


Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 05 Jul 17 at 9:40am
Just make sure the hull is OK. We've got a Vision as a training boat, and I believe there was a manufacturing fault with some boats, which meant the hull was to thin in places, the deck cracked and it started taking on water.

-------------
Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon)


Posted By: Ripped50s
Date Posted: 05 Jul 17 at 9:43pm
Thanks Eisvogel will look out for that. Got a couple I've found locally so starting to get looking properly.


Posted By: Doctor D
Date Posted: 07 Jul 17 at 8:21pm
Starting to get frustrated now as I have no boat to sail. So starting to think about other classes...

So story so far:

Laser 2000 - would be OK - can't find a suitable example without travelling to the other end of the country
Miracle - would need to be GRP - pretty rare
Graduate - would need to be recent GRP (e.g. Rooster) - extremely rare. Class is constrained by availability of boats which means always likely to be niche.

So what else is there -

Enterprise - people say they are tippy, but a two sail boat would be ideal for our pond - also light to haul around - any one have views?
GP14 - seem heavy and I wonder whether the larger genoa/spinnaker is all going to be too much.
RS200 - mentioned a few posts earlier - again a bit friskier than a 2000. Might be better with an ent?

Plastic Fantastics - Vision, Vago - generally not too keen, although used to sail a Vago single handed, not sure I'd really want to race one.

More thoughts...??






Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 11:49am
Buy something you can sell easily. Something middle of the road and not too heavy with not too much sail and simple to maintain. Go Sailing....................Try it for a couple of months......No good? Get rid of it and try something else!

For your needs an Ent fits the bill well. Best pond racer there is. Simple, available and sellable! Get an all GRP one with tanks. Bags are hell;  fit a mast head float, go sailing have fun and learn what suits you.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Riv

Get an all GRP one with tanks.

Be very careful. 70s vintage glass fibre enterprises are IME some of the very worst boats ever built. Sieves are positively watertight by comparison.


Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 9:33am
I don't find Ents very tippy; as long as you remember to uncleat the jib before tacking. I prefer it to a GP14, as the cockpit is more spacious, and you don't have the added complexity of the spinnaker. It's also very easy to rig, and there are plenty of them around, so easy to find people to help you with setting up if necessary. I've only ever had Ents with bags -- they seem fine to me, as long as they're secured well enough and don't float off on their own after you go swimming.

-------------
Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon)



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