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Penalties

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Multihulls
Forum Name: America's Cup
Forum Discription: Your thoughts on challenges to win the 'Auld Mug'
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12102
Printed Date: 23 Oct 17 at 3:42am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Penalties
Posted By: NickM
Subject: Penalties
Date Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 2:06pm
Frustrating not being able to watch live (no BT Sport )

Anyone know what a penalty involves for this series? I remember in San Francisco it seemed to involve slowing down while the light on the stern was showing red or something.



Replies:
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 3:05pm
Same in this, you slow for two boat lengths.

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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: RoundTheBow
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 8:29am
Just tried watching it on YouTube and the video has been censored with a note to watch it on
satillitedirect dot com
Which charges a $30 software download fee.

Well I guess it's the sponsor's loss in the end as there will be far fewer viewers than if it were on free telly.

Watched it from Southsea beach yesterday - that was fine. Also the app gives you a good overview of what's going on.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 9:18am
Really can't get into this idea that, as the BBC has it "the America's cup has come back to Britain for the first time since 1853", or whatever guff they are spouting. A few rich people have spent loads to hire the best pro sailors to help them in a dick measuring contest that has very little to do with the actual America's cup and even less to do with sporting ideals. Kind of feels like an expensive freak show.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 9:44am
Hang on a bit there Rupert: lets examine those phrases:

"A few rich people" "spent loads" "hire the best pro sailors" "dick measuring contest" "very little to do ... with sporting ideals" "expensive freak show"...

Isn't that *exactly* what the America's Cup has always been about even right back to the beginning?


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Rupert

A few rich people have spent loads to hire the best pro sailors....


I went along to watch. Was quite fun. It didn't cost me anything except the travel to get there. You are complaining about others spending their money why exactly? What's so awful about tens of thousands applauding and cheering a sailing event? Some of them might even think it's something they'd like to do themselves.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 11:11am
Not exactly complaining about the event itself, but the way that it has been put out on radio and the telly. This event isn't the America's cup, it is a series of races much like any other commercial series, the Extreme 40s, for instance, yet we are led to believe that because of the AC name and Ben A's presence that it is somehow different.

Yes, the AC has always been about rich people spending money, pro sailors earning a wage and rule arguments, but this isnt the AC, it is simply a branding exercise.

Maybe I'd have been won over if I'd gone to Pompey and watched it live, but I think I'd rather go sailing.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Hitcher
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 11:23am
Did you go sailing?

I don't think it has been specified exactly how yet, but I believe it is intended that points from the ACWS will carry forward to the challenger selection series. Technically that isn't actually the America's Cup either though so you may not be interested.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 11:24am
I have to admit I'm not a fan of the current AC format.

I've lost interest in a number of pro sports lately, and I'm not sure why. Maybe its over exposure. Might just be old age, but it seems to me that in any pro sport everything the same is happening all the time, and there's not much new. For me it takes some of the gloss out of Wimbledon tennis, for instance, when you realise that the same people are playing the same people practically every week of the year, so other than one tournament having more status than another its really the same every week.

Same with Olympic sailing. When I was young all these people you'd never heard of would turn up at the games, seemed like many of them hadn't sailed against each other much, and there was much novelty. These days they all sail against each other at a dozen events a year, and no-one can turn up out of the blue because they all have to qualify anyway.

That's the world my generation has built, so no point in complaining about it, and it makes for a better career for professional sportsmen but...





Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by Hitcher

Did you go sailing?

I don't think it has been specified exactly how yet, but I believe it is intended that points from the ACWS will carry forward to the challenger selection series. Technically that isn't actually the America's Cup either though so you may not be interested.


Not only went sailing, but bought a boat and took it sailing. A day well spent!


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Rupert

This event isn't the America's cup


It isn't the AC but it is the AC teams, sailing the AC course, in boats that are more similar to the AC boats than anything else around.

I think I'd rather go sailing.


In general so would I but there are 100 days a year I could go sailing and just one I could go and watch this.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 5:12pm
Went sailing this afternoon too. Half way round the 1st race in the rain and stupid wind, I think I might have preferred watching someone else sail, whether it be a foiling cat or an oppie, just so long as I was somewhere dry...

As for 100 possible days, you are very lucky if that is the case.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Hitcher
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 5:15pm
Happy days Rupert, who wouldn't prefer to do that?! Glad that you survived today, what did you buy?


Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 6:04pm
I dunno Rupert. It may be a freak show like other elite sports but at least it is getting some air time on major TV channels and thousands of non sailors turned up on Southsea beach to watch. That's more than can be said for series like the Extreme 40s etc. And Ainsle is (almost) a household name.   

I would like to think that somewhere there are a few dozen kids and maybe older non-sailors watching who had never seen a foiling moth or big cat before and are now enthused to give sailing a go. We fill enough threads here forecasting the death of dinghy sailing. This coverage has to be good news.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 6:52pm
I guess so. I'll have to see if any of the people I teach this summer have heard of it.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: kyler
Date Posted: 29 Jul 15 at 3:24am
Being from the states, and a water state (Michigan), I'm amazed at the lack of interest in sailing these days. If the ACWS generates new interest in the sport, I'm all for it, regardless who's footing the bill. Sadly, it's only the small boat classes that don't require a massive investment to sail and race. I was an avid windsurfer in my younger days. Nothing like it for being in touch with the elements.


Posted By: RoundTheBow
Date Posted: 30 Jul 15 at 7:52am
Here it is on the BBC, for about 24 days only I think:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0643y94/sailing-americas-cup


Posted By: kyler
Date Posted: 30 Jul 15 at 2:05pm
Thanks very much!


Posted By: Sam S
Date Posted: 04 Jun 17 at 9:16pm
Dirty Tactics!
I have been watching the America's Cup races.
I understand the need for the 'Port - Starboard' rule for give-way, but when it is used to stiffle the other boats chances, it makes no sense.
If it was frowned upon or not allowed to be used for 'dirty tactics' the races would be much more about 'The Boat' and 'The Team', which I believe should be the main intent of the America's Cup races.
Not a drag race, but a skillfull yacht race without the need to screw up the other teams race by taking the port - starboard rule and turning it into a weapon.
My analogy is like a soccer game where tripping is allowed. (The players would spend more time on the ground than playing skillfully)




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Sam


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Jun 17 at 10:12pm
Match racing has traditionally always had a large amount of screwing up the other guy about it though. Indeed the traditionalists whinge there isn't nearly enough of it with the multihulls.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 9:22am
Using the rules to your advantage. Has always been part of the game.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 11:36am
When watching this, one has to consider that the America's Cup has always been rigged to the Defender's advantage, so that is part of the deal; however IMO it would be a better event if ...

The Defender was not in the LV series, that is just daft, as is the point carried over into the final;
That the winner of the LV raced 4th place, and 2nd raced 3rd; this would have added more edge to the 1st round;
Penalties were a bit more severe, in some conditions the two boat slow down penalty has very little impact;

My guess is that next time around teams will have worked out less power hungry systems, but I would prefer to see a contest based on pure sailing rather than how much hydraulic pressure is left in the tank.


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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: Sam S
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 5:01pm
I agree. USA changed the rules to put themselves in the LV Series so that they would have an even greater advantage over the challengers.
As for the 'pure' sailing, I couldn't agree more. A race of yacht and team abilities is what it should be about.



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Sam


Posted By: Sam S
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 5:05pm
Using the rules to your advantage is IMHO 'bad sportsmanship'. 
Just because you can 'trip up' the other team to 'win' your race, does not mean that you won on an even footing. And that is my point.
If the race is about the skill of the team at sailing their boat the fastest, then we have a true representation of a team and boat.


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Sam


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 5:37pm
both boats want to be in the same place at the same time the only way to be in that place is to prevent the other boat from being there

Sailing has always been about who can use the rules to their advantage, no sailor in the world has ever won a championship event without having to out smart the other boats on the course and this is exactly the same. Keep the others boats behind you and you'l always win 

to come out with comments about it being un-sportsman like and not pure sailing is completely ignorant 



Posted By: Sam S
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 5:59pm
The 'Port-Starboard' rule was implimented for give-way purposes, not to screw up the other boats chances of winning. That is like allowing tripping in a soccer game. 
I agree with the rule, but not when used to stiffle your competitor. This aught to be a gentleman's sport.


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Sam


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 6:20pm
Gently now, my namesake is a newb here and may not have any racing experience. Sam S, I'm not a fan of the 'win at all costs' attitude we see in so much sport these days, and am a huge believer in sportsmen 'doing the right thing' (I was the guy who re-rounded a touched mark even if nobody saw me touch it.....). But, the rules are the same for everybody and at that level they all have an intimate knowledge of them. Would you describe it as 'bad sportsmanship' in a football game for a defender to step up field causing the opposing forward to be offside as he receives a pass? Much the same thing IMHO. And, while I didn't see the incident in question, the ROW rules are even more important (if that's possible) in these big fast AC boats due to their lack of manoeuvrability.

It's well worth reading Eric Twiname's brilliant book "Start To Win" or at least the chapter/s relating to rules and protests. He wrote much sense.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Sam S
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 6:34pm
I totally agree. I am not against the rule, only the abuse of it in what I call dirty-tactics.

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Sam


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 6:54pm
But the point is that they are simply 'tactics', nothing dirty about them, all the teams have the same opportunities to use the rules to their advantage as Ainsley did to beat Robert Scheidt and secure an Olympic gold in the final race at Sydney 2000.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 7:07pm
I'll use rules to my advantage every time I race, as will those I'm racing against. That is the game. Otherwise, it is simply either sailing in company or a drag race.
Match racing will take that to the next level, as they don't have to worry about their position in a fleet. 2nd is last. Using the rules to win is sportsmanship. Abusing them is unsporting.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 7:26pm
I do too, the trick is to assess the level of 'rule aggression' at the club/event you are taking part in and behave accordingly, I will be much less aggressive at a Wednesday night club race than I might at a National Championships because what would be considered fair at a Nationals might be considered a bit OTT at a club race. But I race for fun not to win an Olympic Gold. Paul Elvstrom nailed it when he said "You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors." Nobody is going to lose the respect of the other competition in the ACWS by pushing the rules to the limit (though they would if they , say, used an foil or other piece of equipment they know to be illegal).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 7:47pm
Sam S, try watching competetive Laser sailors to see rules abused and pushed to the limit.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 8:00pm
Mr Spoons, you are quite right about levels of competitiveness, and even in the same race, I'll judge whether someone is out to win or learning how to race, and behave differently. But ensuring you are on starboard when you meet another boat is hardly pushing any boundaries.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 8:02pm
Sam S what kind of racing experience do you have?


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 9:24am
Originally posted by Rupert

Mr Spoons, you are quite right about levels of competitiveness, and even in the same race, I'll judge whether someone is out to win or learning how to race, and behave differently. But ensuring you are on starboard when you meet another boat is hardly pushing any boundaries.

Agreed, if it is someone I know is experienced and knows the rules then fair play (as I know most of my regular competitors will do the same to me in a heartbeat and we then have a chuckle about it afterwards).

If it is a less experienced person they get cut far more slack (and help/chat if needed).


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Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 10:58am
The rules are remarkably simple ... it is the application of them that is more confusing.

At the level that they are playing pushing the limits is to be expected, but we see this in any professional sport be it rugby, cycling, tennis, motor racing etc.

As one esteemed international judge lectured us at our club; if you know the rules you can make them work for you.

The opposite to this is that if you don't know them you are at a distinct disadvantage.

Truth is that the rules that are most relevant to most Club and open Meeting sailors, are "port and starboard", "windward boat" and "mark room", without a knowledge of these, chaos would ensue.  If you don't know these you probably should not be on the race course.

Interestingly, apart from procedure, these are also the main areas of interaction on the LV race course, though things happen a bit faster, and I don't have a protest button in the cockpit of my Solo.

Something I find quite alien is the opportunity to speak to the PRO and ask what the course is ... I usually scribble it on the deck!



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Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth


Posted By: Sam S
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 5:23pm
Love that quote: "You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

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Sam


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Sam S

Love that quote: "You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

Its *very* widely misused though. The great Elvstrom was by no means averse to sportsmanlike gamesmanship and making use of the rules to the limit.


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by Sam S

Using the rules to your advantage is IMHO 'bad sportsmanship'. 
Just because you can 'trip up' the other team to 'win' your race, does not mean that you won on an even footing. And that is my point.
If the race is about the skill of the team at sailing their boat the fastest, then we have a true representation of a team and boat.

Don't really see how using the RoW rules to control a competitor to your advantage is any different from hitting a tennis ball to your opponent's weaker side, or bowling the cricket ball in a fashion to try and get him/(her) out/not score runs. 

Boats in a sailing race interact at far greater angles than in any other form of racing. There aren't lanes, there isn't a motor racing racing line etc. 

Up to the last couple of ACs, the rules have evolved to reflect what happens on the water rather than vice versa. 


Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 6:35pm
I feel it depends on the context I.e, the type of competition:
Match racing is 'by definition' a one on one duel. ("I don't have a problem with it, the man was a pig" - sorry, watching Hunt For Red October too much!)
Team racing, similarly, is all about engineering the whole race to maximise your team's result. Without 'dirty tactics' it would be pretty meaningless and dull.
In club racing: it depends why you're there. If its to win a bottle of wine at any cost then be a feisty git ifyouwant. Or do it just for fun (the vast majority of us?) and make friends


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Sam S

Love that quote: "You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

Its *very* widely misused though.

Not in this context though (IMHO)

The great Elvstrom was by no means averse to sportsmanlike gamesmanship and making use of the rules to the limit.

But he was also renowned for scrupulous honesty on the racecourse which, really, is my point.
 



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"


Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Sam S

Love that quote: "You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

Its *very* widely misused though.
Not in this context though (IMHO)
The great Elvstrom was by no means averse to sportsmanlike gamesmanship and making use of the rules to the limit.
But he was also renowned for scrupulous honesty on the racecourse which, really, is my point. 


I think there's a massive difference between using the agreed rules (under which youve implicitly agreed to compete) and, say, claiming a british knight of the realm has hit a mark when he hasn't...



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Jun 17 at 7:09pm
:)

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"



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