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Four races done

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Multihulls
Forum Name: America's Cup
Forum Discription: Your thoughts on challenges to win the 'Auld Mug'
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11066
Printed Date: 14 Dec 17 at 6:38pm
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Topic: Four races done
Posted By: oz man
Subject: Four races done
Date Posted: 08 Sep 13 at 11:13pm
Surprising lack of comments on here what does everyone think so far?



Replies:
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 8:24am
Missed the first three races. Saw the fourth. Despite not being a match-race fan, actuially really rather entertaining stuff. The boats are pretty evenly matched, and we're seeing actual tactical boat-on-boat racing.

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-_
Al


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 9:09am
The lack of comments is likely down to lack of interest......

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 9:11am
Fantatstic is what I say

Its what we always wanted these races to be but all doubted would happen.

Giant Cats doing 40+ knots and taking it to each other in a proper race.

Cant wait for the race

Ian




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Blaze 715


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 9:17am
I think the lack of comments is more likely to be due to the fact that everyone is watching the sailing instead!


Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 9:46am
Probably due to the previously verbous sceptics being too busy  helping them selves to a large dose of humble pie whilst watching the spectacular match racing . ;) 

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Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 11:40am
I think Shirley Robertsons comments at the press conference after the first day summed it up well, she thanked the skippers for the close racing and said that everyone had heard them all saying it would be close and no-one believed them, however everyone now believes them!
We get a night off tonight and then it starts again on Tuesday.


Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 12:38pm
Lack of interest! Really? I don't think I can remember more people standing by the edge of the water watching sailing than there is currently watching in San Francisco. 



Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 1:11pm
28500 spectators on the piers for race 1 , another 16000 in the marine park  never mind elsewhere, 




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Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 1:32pm
Plus whatever were watching on you tube and tv.
Close racing,incredible boats and high speed I can totally understand the lack of interest.
I for one would certainly be rather watching a couple of 12 meter dinosaurs drifting arround at four knots!
Wink


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by oz man

I for one would certainly be rather watching a couple of 12 meter dinosaurs drifting around at four knots!

Through binoculars of course as they are about fifteen miles out to sea...


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 1:58pm
Alas not everyone live in San Francisco and can pop down to take a look at what is happening in the harbour and a lot of other feel it is so irrelevant to Sailing as a sport that they just don't bother....

Just my opinion as always.

I wonder how many of the 30,000+ were actual sailors or socialites (think Henly Royal regatta for a similar analogy......)


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 2:03pm
I stand by my comments about the race track being one dimensional and at odds with the craft (in a purest racing context). But am pleased that the racing in the Cup IS so tight. Mainly because each boat seems to marginally out perform the other in slightly different areas. NZL seems quicker upwind. USA seems to go deeper at the same speed as NZL downwind (USA also seem to have worked out how to keep a slightly faster upwind boat behind them). And I stand by my other comments that I think mega fast team racing cats are fantastic to watch!

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Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 2:30pm
I think it has been fantastic, but can't think of anything to say. Dumb struck, I suppose.
Do you reckon wings will be tried again now in the A Class?

I'm also looking forward to the Little AC in Falmouth soon. Might pop over to watch some of it.

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Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 2:38pm
Does it matter if they were sailors or not? A non sailing mate of mine went to Weymouth to watch the Olympics because they were they only Olympic tickets he could get, now he's watching and enjoying this.
I still can't get him on a boat though ( the lazy git) he says anything smaller than a ferry and he won't go on it. 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Sep 13 at 8:37pm
I certainly wasn't expecting close racing like this, so munch, munch on the humble pie...

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 11:32am
Originally posted by catmandoo

28500 spectators on the piers for race 1 , another 16000 in the marine park  never mind elsewhere,


Afaik most of the spectator area is free access so nobody really knows how many are there. I was at Plymouth ACWS and while there were plenty of spectators, the later claimed figures were far from credible to me.

There are vast numbers of comments on Sailing Anarchy for those interested.

I think most people found the LVC a wash-out but the final is providing better and closer racing than the scoreline would suggest.


Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 11:38am
some elf and safety dude prob counted them 

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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 7:24pm
Granted the boats are very impressive and the sailors on show are some of the best... But really I'm not buying all this "close racing" blarney.. There have been some close first mark roundings but after that, barring yesterday's fluffed 'foiling tack' by OTUSA it's basically been a procession


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 7:49pm
Les face it: match racing is almost always a procession. Boat A gets ahead and covers.


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 11 Sep 13 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by getafix

Granted the boats are very impressive and the sailors on show are some of the best... But really I'm not buying all this "close racing" blarney.. There have been some close first mark roundings but after that, barring yesterday's fluffed 'foiling tack' by OTUSA it's basically been a procession


So you've not actually watched it then.

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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 8:50am
Originally posted by JimC

Les face it: match racing is almost always a procession. Boat A gets ahead and covers.

Not sure I agree completely. Upwind perhaps, but in these races the trailing boat doesn't seem to have the ability to attack downwind as they would in a 'traditional' race. 

Whilst the downwind stuff has been exciting, in the races I've seen there doesn't seem to be any distance gained or lost at all - just an evenly matched drag race.




Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 9:56am
Because the boats are so fast and therefore the apparent wind is so far forward the boat behind on the run cannot sit on the boat ahead to catch up, slower boats that dont sail as much on apparent wind allow the boat behind to attack better on the run and make for closer races and more overtaking.


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Originally posted by getafix

Granted the boats are very impressive and the sailors on show are some of the best... But really I'm not buying all this "close racing" blarney.. There have been some close first mark roundings but after that, barring yesterday's fluffed 'foiling tack' by OTUSA it's basically been a procession


So you've not actually watched it then.

oh but I have, just my 'glasses' have slightly less of a rose tinted view to them? 


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by GarethT

Originally posted by JimC

Les face it: match racing is almost always a procession. Boat A gets ahead and covers.

Not sure I agree completely. Upwind perhaps, but in these races the trailing boat doesn't seem to have the ability to attack downwind as they would in a 'traditional' race. 

Whilst the downwind stuff has been exciting, in the races I've seen there doesn't seem to be any distance gained or lost at all - just an evenly matched drag race.



agreed, the reality is that only a gear failure or human error is going to result in a downwind pass due to the nature of the beasts (although this may change if it goes mega light, but I'm not sure there isn't a min wind speed agreed), you can argue human error is part of racing but you can't argue that gear failure is something which can be relied upon to happen at a particular point or (fairly) initiated by a competitor towards the other boat


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 1:23pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz7rYUl4BH0&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz7rYUl4BH0&feature=youtu.be




Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 4:41pm
in cat racing the down wind leg can offer more opportunites for gains losses, can be more tactical than beating , where a well executed gybe can loose lots less than a tack 

thats why we do it !!!!

cat race that is Big smile


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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 5:12pm
Do you match race your cats?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 5:55pm
It has made me wonder what team racing Dart 16's or similar would be like, compared to Fireflies. The tactics would need to change, bit it could be fun?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 6:27pm
We'll see if Ben can change things around tonight!




Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by GarethT

Do you match race your cats?
not officialy but 

Did effectively for two to three seasons when my buddy and i both had hurricane 5.9s we ended up match racing each due to our over competitiveness , right down to prestart shenanigans , pushing each other out at marks , crash tacking ( soon learned not to do that ! ) pushing each other to the limits when windy untill someone would capsize , it was exhausting but great fun , he went on to come 2nd in nationals .


Not such a silly idea to match race darts , but something faster and evenly matched may be better .



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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 8:52pm
I don't care if Ben is onboard I still want NZ to win the Cup!

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Owenfackrell
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 10:59pm
After Oracle won that race one of the writers on sail world made the comment that Oracle beat ETNZ when they (oracle) performed a faultless race where as ENTZ had made quite a lot of mistakes. This seems to be true after watching race 7. They now only need 3 wins verses 10 for Oracle.
I have been a Kiwi supporter from the off as they at least have the Union Jack as part of their flag and I like how thief boat looks.


Posted By: lambert
Date Posted: 13 Sep 13 at 3:04pm
I think that the upwind legs have always been rucial for the race at least going back to 1995 monohull. At that time, I remember a French skipper (to explain their poor performances !) saying that a better angle of 0.5 degree was enough to win with similar speed.
It appears that this "rule" is still true with the AC72 and that ETNZ has the better design with technical  compromises focussed on upwind efficiency.


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 9:30am
I dare some one to come on line now and tell us all that the last two races weren't great.

A spectacle that my mum could enjoy

Exciting boats that my daughter can enjoy 

and some fantastic racing, upwind and down, to keep me glued to the screen.

I think if Elison and his team had a view to what they wanted the Americas cup to be then yesterdays racing was it. 

I'm a convert. If they can just reduce the costs so that we have ten teams trying to win it then they have my vote.

Ian




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Blaze 715


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 10:39am
Yesterday had me glued to the screen. Will be bunging it on iplayer when the kids have done their homework later!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 3:27pm
Ever since Oracle got spanked and washed off the other race they have come back and made this a whole lot more interesting.  Actual racing.  Proper drama.  Some real 'stick' in the pre-starts. Even some place-changing downwind in r10.  Good show!

I stick by my comments on the 'action' before this, very much a procession in earlier races, thankfully not the case more recently.


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 3:40pm
very magnanimous of you.

will you change your mind again when / if the tide is on the Flood next time and the course becomes single lane traffic only?!

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Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 3:46pm
As long as its a windward / leeward, then they have to take upwind single sided or not. As long as the chase boat can get out of sequence there will still be passing lanes, possibly even more as more tacks will mean more opportunities.



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Blaze 715


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 4:03pm
well it's changed my irrational prejudice towards cats and tactical cat racing, but unfortunately it's amplfied a new one... it's curtains for asymmetric kites... one for dinghy development.


Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 5:23pm
Oracle's dramatically improved performance upwind shows that the teams are still working out how best to sail these boats.   Fascinating to see if either side comes up with some other unexpected tweaks.


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

very magnanimous of you.

will you change your mind again when / if the tide is on the Flood next time and the course becomes single lane traffic only?!

Nope, don't think I'll need to, the change has less to do with specific tidal or wind directional changes and much more to do with tactical aggression and improved technique.  Technique comes with practice, as far as tactical aggression goes, I wouldn't t like to bet that Sir Ben and Msrs Spithill and Slingsby are going to run out any time soon 



Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 12:23am
Seriously eating my words about this whole AC72 thing. I was totally convinced that the series would be a straight drag race but have been totally glued to every race so far, and they seem to get closer and more exciting each time.

Biggest shame is that OTUSA conceded so many races before they found form. From here it would seem that if the boats stay evenly matched and the racing close then ETNZ will close it out within the next few races, simply by playing the percentages. On the other hand if either boat gains a substantial advantage then the racing won't be exciting. Either way it doesn't seem likely that we'll see another 9 races played out like the last two!

Been some interesting learning for all of us, trying to get to grips with concepts like "wing wash", and lead boats being able to cover the boat behind on the run?. Another thing that seems strange is the notion of crew members grinding apparently randomly, without a corresponding winch drum turning anywhere. For a while I thought BA's coffee grinder was there just to aid his thought processes

Interesting how Ray Davies seemed almost dismissive about Oracle beating them by picking the shifts better, as though that somehow nullified their achievement. To me the whole point of putting arguably 3 of the best shift-pickers in the sport at the back of the boat is to ensure you do just that to beat the other boat.

Reaching starts seemed like a drag race format in the AC45 fleet racing, but with just two boats it becomes as tactical as you like. Spithill's start in Race 9 was a joy to watch.

Great hearing some of the onboard stuff too. My favourite was the exchange between BA and JS, when BA complimented JS on good tacking, JS starts to explain what he's doing differently and BA politely tells him to shut up and sail the boat. I think at that point he came of age as a tactician!!!

Still have major concerns about the safety considerations though. Restricting the max wind strength ensures that the chase boats can keep up at all times, but I still wouldn't fancy the chances of any crew on the windward hull of a capsized AC72. Do you take your chances with a 60 foot jump and hope that you don't hit anything on the way down, or wait and hope the rig doesn't collapse so you fall the same distance with the boat on top? Can't really see an answer to that one...


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 6:17am
Originally posted by ohFFsake



Still have major concerns about the safety considerations though. Restricting the max wind strength ensures that the chase boats can keep up at all times, but I still wouldn't fancy the chances of any crew on the windward hull of a capsized AC72. Do you take your chances with a 60 foot jump and hope that you don't hit anything on the way down, or wait and hope the rig doesn't collapse so you fall the same distance with the boat on top? Can't really see an answer to that one...


this may well be the only time we ever see the AC72's go at it, from both a safety and cost point-of-view I can't see them being the weapon of choice again, as the very good post on wings vs sails states above, as well know the last time one of these suffered a major capsize, a very good sailor was lost...shouldn't happen ever again


Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 6:40am
Originally posted by ohFFsake

Seriously eating my words about this whole AC72 thing. I was totally convinced that the series would be a straight drag race but have been totally glued to every race so far, and they seem to get closer and more exciting each time.

Biggest shame is that OTUSA conceded so many races before they found form. From here it would seem that if the boats stay evenly matched and the racing close then ETNZ will close it out within the next few races, simply by playing the percentages. On the other hand if either boat gains a substantial advantage then the racing won't be exciting. Either way it doesn't seem likely that we'll see another 9 races played out like the last two!

Been some interesting learning for all of us, trying to get to grips with concepts like "wing wash", and lead boats being able to cover the boat behind on the run?. Another thing that seems strange is the notion of crew members grinding apparently randomly, without a corresponding winch drum turning anywhere. For a while I thought BA's coffee grinder was there just to aid his thought processes

Interesting how Ray Davies seemed almost dismissive about Oracle beating them by picking the shifts better, as though that somehow nullified their achievement. To me the whole point of putting arguably 3 of the best shift-pickers in the sport at the back of the boat is to ensure you do just that to beat the other boat.

Reaching starts seemed like a drag race format in the AC45 fleet racing, but with just two boats it becomes as tactical as you like. Spithill's start in Race 9 was a joy to watch.

Great hearing some of the onboard stuff too. My favourite was the exchange between BA and JS, when BA complimented JS on good tacking, JS starts to explain what he's doing differently and BA politely tells him to shut up and sail the boat. I think at that point he came of age as a tactician!!!

Still have major concerns about the safety considerations though. Restricting the max wind strength ensures that the chase boats can keep up at all times, but I still wouldn't fancy the chances of any crew on the windward hull of a capsized AC72. Do you take your chances with a 60 foot jump and hope that you don't hit anything on the way down, or wait and hope the rig doesn't collapse so you fall the same distance with the boat on top? Can't really see an answer to that one...


I believe the sailors all wear harnesses with self lowering gear which means they can clip onto something and abseil down rather than having to jump. I think this was stipulated under the safety rules after the Artemis tragedy.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 9:27am
An abseiling line sounds like another thing to be trapped by? lesser evil, I guess.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by Rupert

An abseiling line sounds like another thing to be trapped by? lesser evil, I guess.


It all sounds very Wallace and Gromit
Be just my luck to find the line was too short and be left dangling 20 feet up!!!


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

Seriously eating my words about this whole AC72 thing. I was totally convinced that the series would be a straight drag race but have been totally glued to every race so far, and they seem to get closer and more exciting each time.

Biggest shame is that OTUSA conceded so many races before they found form. From here it would seem that if the boats stay evenly matched and the racing close then ETNZ will close it out within the next few races, simply by playing the percentages. On the other hand if either boat gains a substantial advantage then the racing won't be exciting. Either way it doesn't seem likely that we'll see another 9 races played out like the last two!

Been some interesting learning for all of us, trying to get to grips with concepts like "wing wash", and lead boats being able to cover the boat behind on the run?. Another thing that seems strange is the notion of crew members grinding apparently randomly, without a corresponding winch drum turning anywhere. For a while I thought BA's coffee grinder was there just to aid his thought processes

Interesting how Ray Davies seemed almost dismissive about Oracle beating them by picking the shifts better, as though that somehow nullified their achievement. To me the whole point of putting arguably 3 of the best shift-pickers in the sport at the back of the boat is to ensure you do just that to beat the other boat.

Reaching starts seemed like a drag race format in the AC45 fleet racing, but with just two boats it becomes as tactical as you like. Spithill's start in Race 9 was a joy to watch.

Great hearing some of the onboard stuff too. My favourite was the exchange between BA and JS, when BA complimented JS on good tacking, JS starts to explain what he's doing differently and BA politely tells him to shut up and sail the boat. I think at that point he came of age as a tactician!!!

Still have major concerns about the safety considerations though. Restricting the max wind strength ensures that the chase boats can keep up at all times, but I still wouldn't fancy the chances of any crew on the windward hull of a capsized AC72. Do you take your chances with a 60 foot jump and hope that you don't hit anything on the way down, or wait and hope the rig doesn't collapse so you fall the same distance with the boat on top? Can't really see an answer to that one...
This.

I caught up last night, it being breadknife in control of TV night, very exciting and for once the commentary wasn't too lame, it makes the concept of sailing cats almost palatable, need to brush up on the rules that are in play these days, there was stuff going on that used to be illegal (footing off on starboard to push them down further, that didn't used to be permitted)and the establishing of a windward overlap approaching from the rear, has that changed or is it specific to this series?
Very enthralling made me want to Foil up the Twin.


And the Kiwis lost when they left the old guy ashore - loved that bit..

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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:17pm
Graeme see the dial down thread in the rules section... one to hit MaxiB with at the FOM.


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:51pm
"It's not over!"

...but somewhere off-stage I'm sure I can hear a fat lady clearing her throat...


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 20 Sep 13 at 11:56pm
Pure theatre!


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Sep 13 at 10:37am
I was thinking pure farce.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 21 Sep 13 at 5:29pm
It does seem to be a slightly strange time limit...

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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 21 Sep 13 at 6:10pm
Given that the wind had built since the start, even allowing for the little bit of luffing at the beginning it looks like the RO set a course that in the conditions he had it would've been impossible to complete in the time limit.

Crazy


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 21 Sep 13 at 8:31pm
I'm not sure what the rules are with respect to the length of the course, I wouldn't be surprised if it was defined in their rules somewhere.

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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 21 Sep 13 at 8:37pm
If the course length is fixed, and the time limit is fixed, then surely you don't start a race if there's not enough wind to get round in the time limit?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Sep 13 at 10:00pm
It seems they can't chnge the angle, either. If our club racing was run like this, I think people would leave in droves.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 22 Sep 13 at 8:22pm
So, what odds on a race being abandoned with the Kiwis about to win due to a whale on the course?


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 22 Sep 13 at 8:35pm
About the same as the odds on these boats not being able to race in the rain, probably.


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 22 Sep 13 at 11:05pm
Wow!

Incredible sailing by OTUSA today.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 8:32am
Spithill certainly made Barker seem like a beginner. I wonder if they can get that final win, or is Oracle simply the faster boat now?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 11:13am

So, Oracle to win two more tonight?



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-_
Al


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 12:05pm
I think the Kiwis were just being too desperate to try something different to get past on the first downwind.

If they just stayed in touch they seem to have a slight advantage upwind. 


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 1:00pm
Who was it said "Good boatspeed makes you a tactical genius"!

Right now Oracle seem confident in their speed and boat handling nearly everywhere. Their last minute gybe in front of ETNZ the other day, and the crucial tack at the windward mark yesterday were prime examples of their confidence to carry out bold race changing maneouvres.
Also happy to sit in front and match gybe for gybe as each one seems to pull them ouyt another 20m of distance, they also seem to be able to soak slightly lower at the same speed as the boat above, and also to be able to maintain the same VMG upwind whilst pointing at substantially different modes which allows them to adjust their position relative to the other boat without needing to tack.
Don't think ETNZ's gybes yesterday were perhaps as bad as they seemed. I suspect that in both instances they'd just watched Oracle wallow through a big hole ahead and knew that following them through it was hopeless, therefore gybing off at least gave them a chance of opening up an option.
Looks to me like if the breeze is decent and consistent Oracle now have all the bases pretty much covered, and despite their dominant situation NZ will only win if Oracle make a blunder or the weather helps them out.
One of which will probably happen...!


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 1:38pm
Yup thats pretty much how I see it.

Momentum has clearly shifted to Oracle but ETNZ aren't so far behind that they cant make up the difference at least once in the next four races.

Ian


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Blaze 715


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

Who was it said "Good boatspeed makes you a tactical genius"!



Me, in 1979 and it was 'Good Board speed makes you a tactical genius'


So, what time is the final and is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raqkkPMrkYU" rel="nofollow - this the place to watch it first, I can't wait until it's up on iplayer..

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Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 2:01pm
I believe ETNZ will get the favoured port entry for both races tonight so if they cant win at least 1 race tonight then I think they really will struggle to win the cup....


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by ohFFsake

Who was it said "Good boatspeed makes you a tactical genius"!



Me, in 1979 and it was 'Good Board speed makes you a tactical genius'


So, what time is the final and is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raqkkPMrkYU" rel="nofollow - this the place to watch it first, I can't wait until it's up on iplayer..


Funny, I thought it was Elvstrom from a while before that...

I've just been taking the feed from the front page on here.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 3:07pm
Goes live on America's Cup YouTube Channel @ 9pm

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Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 3:57pm
Well I agree with some of the above and disagree with some of it, but whatever happens from here I would say this has been the most enjoyable ac I have seen and hope team nz don't win any races tonight because I don't want it to end.



Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 10:23pm
looks like time limit's ending racing for the day

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-_
Al


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 10:25pm
Those Kiwis. they must be wondering what the ef has happened.. They're even if not for the penalty, hell what a come back..

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Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 10:39pm
Superstition or not it's time for the kiwis to get Grant Dalton back on the boat.

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Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 23 Sep 13 at 10:55pm
I think he's probably dealing with the IRS / US Federal Government at the moment if Sailing Anarchy can be believed.

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Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 12:02am
If you ever study modern history, OTUSA's position 5 races ago was about where Great Britain was in 1940.

Any coincidence that when the chips are down Team Oracle turn to a combination of a Brit and two Commonwealth subjects, with the Yanks just paying for the battleship!

On a serious note, I do wonder whether the selection of Ainslie as tactician was due to his proven track record of winning with his back to the wall.

Cracking race today though, first time in the whole series the boats have really hit the line bang on the gun, how difficult must that be?


Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 7:09am
Originally posted by ohFFsake

first time in the whole series the boats have really hit the line bang on the gun, how difficult must that be?
They're not aiming to be on the line on the gun, they're aiming to be ahead of the other boat, nothing more.


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 10:43am
So what do ETNZ do.

Early on in the cup they would have been stupid to make big changes because what they were doing was working.

Oracle had to make big changes and with luck on there side they have managed to make the big step forward that they needed to edge in front on the performance front before its to late.

So do New Zealand hope that there luck will change soon or do they start making big changes themselves knowing full well that they could make things worse before they get better and that time is running out?

Ian


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Blaze 715


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 11:06am
They still have boat speed, I think, it is tactics and a willingness to commit that they appear to be lacking. The leading boat has he advantage both upwind and down in these boats, unlike traditional match racing, so being in the lead after that first, dumb little dash to the mark is a huge advantage. Does normal match racing have a reaching start - I don't get the purpose of it?

I must admit that I'm beginning to hope that Spithill and team get these 3 races - now the boats are of a speed, their sailing ability seems to have an edge. Then I remember that it would mean another AC run by the clowns, and I start hoping for that "one more win" again.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 11:21am
I'm with you on the one more race thing.

Credit to Oracle for getting it together and for making a race of it but on balance I think ETNZ have done enough to deserve it.

I dont think Oracle have done a bad job of running the event... all the problems are just part of the cup and I for one think they have opened the door and showed the way forward so far as making the sport interesting and exciting for even the non sailing public goes. And it needs that to attract sponsors and thats what will put more teams on the water

I've just had a conversation about sailing with the guys at work and I've known them all for years and they have never shown any interest in sailing before!!!

Ian


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Blaze 715


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 11:45am
The commentary happening on the C class cat racing is somewhat more down to earth than the AC stuff. Pity they only have one camera and can show so little of the boats acually racing.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 1:45pm
but to be honest the C=Class champ's may as well be on the radio for all the good the footage is.

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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 1:59pm
There commentary is also...errr... slightly more agricultural... shall we say! ;-)

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 2:22pm
I'm hoping there will be good edited footage available of the boats - they really are amazing machines.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 4:05pm
I wonder if we'll see the technology used for the AC minutuarise and cheapen to the point the likes of the C-Class lot can afford to use it? The future surely has to be low cost camera drones?

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-_
Al


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 4:13pm
im amazed they aren't using these puppies already:

%20" rel="nofollow - http://www.actioncameras.co.uk/dji-phantom-quadcopter



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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 4:18pm


[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_VoagxJsUQ[/TUBE]

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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 10:26pm
This is such a good race tonight, when ETNZ tacked to lee-bow and OTUSA foiled over the top of them.... I was a sceptic, but no longer, these guys have really learned how to get these things round the course to the point where there is real, actual match racing happening


Posted By: Villan
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 10:40pm

What the hell changed for NZL? Did they give themselves a fright when they almost capsized?  

Oracle have found a serious turn of speed everywhere - hell, going from 150+ meters down to 1000+ meters up ... How is that even possible!! We know Ainslie "had nothing to do" with the weight packs found on the 40 ... but have the boats been remeasured since day 1? 

What they pulled at that 1st start today ... taking the rules to the letter, but surely they breached the preventions of collisions at sea by not avoiding contact?

Looking forward to tomorrows racing though .. taking all bets!



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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 10:42pm
Wow, just Wow..and now they're even..

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 10:44pm
Seems like I was wrong about the boat speed being roughly even - just nowhere near. Like trying to race a hobie cat against a Tornado.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 10:55pm
Are the boat speeds that different?  Up until ETNZ ballsed up that tack on top of OTUSA the upwind speed wasn't that different, OTUSA didn't seem to be making huge gains.  I think the final separation is purely down to who rounds the windward mark first because once ETNZ were up to speed the gap didn't really get much bigger I don't think.

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Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 11:01pm
What an incredible day's sailing.

An absolutely masterful demonstration of match racing tactics by Spithill in race 1.

Then in race 2 they really showed their quality. After losing the initiative early on it looked like they had a touch more speed downwind to put them back in contention, then that move on the beat was the moment of the whole regatta.

But what happened after that? Did ETNZ just give up? Oracle just seemed to walk away, with a far greater speed differential than in the first race.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 11:13pm
What I don't get is why TNZ did not go for the dial down.  Commentators only discussed the lee bow or the cross and go, but there was a third way.

See racing rules threads


Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 25 Sep 13 at 8:27am
Dangerous I guess, on commentary it seemed the decision to lee bow was taken immediately after the tack, so pretty early, does the dial down require more height perhaps? I am not sure it was immediately obvious they would get the ROW as Oracle was flying upwind!
At the end of the day it was a mistake, we all make those. 
I have to say I am totally amazed at the difference Ben has made, you have to admire/laugh at his antics at the start, pure drama.


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 25 Sep 13 at 9:00am
In the "rubbing" start- ETNZ through that had their wing inverted. No bloody wonder they went sideways...

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-_
Al


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 25 Sep 13 at 9:14am
Critically, Oracle let their job fly as they went head to wind, so were able to just and so maintain momentum while NZ stopped


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 25 Sep 13 at 9:55am
I thought with up to 15 sec to go Dean had done a pretty reasonable job.... yes he was to close to the line but he had Oracle under control but then it all went tits up. Ironically of course had he been another 3ft closer to the line Oracle wouldn't have had the space for the hook and although ETNZ would still have lost the start it wouldn't have turned into the mess that developed.

Ian


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Blaze 715


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Sep 13 at 10:13am
Was it a mess? I thought it was a carefully crafted mess, with the intention to inflict maximum penalty on ETNZ, classic Ainslie I thought. Did they not inch that rudder over a tad to ensure contact?

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Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 25 Sep 13 at 10:16am
is it just me or was Oracle very close to not giving NZ room to keep clear when they obtained the overlap from astern?




Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 25 Sep 13 at 10:24am
When you saw the replay on "virtual eye" Spithill's control was perfect - ghosting along almost head to wind until ETNZ lost way and drifted down onto them.

Also, under the new rules, if a ROW boat is unable to manoeuvre then the other boat is not keeping clear. Hence Oracle loudly announcing their inability to be able to bear away and start.

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Barker's error becomes clear. He was clear ahead and early with lots of room below him on the line. If he'd just borne away further when Oracle went to the hook the start would have been his for the taking. Instead it seemed like he was intent on starting at the windward end of the line so left the other boat a wide open door for the hook, which they executed to perfection (as he acknowledged).



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