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Cheating in AC?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Multihulls
Forum Name: America's Cup
Forum Discription: Your thoughts on challenges to win the 'Auld Mug'
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11054
Printed Date: 14 Dec 17 at 1:23pm
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Topic: Cheating in AC?
Posted By: pondscum
Subject: Cheating in AC?
Date Posted: 01 Sep 13 at 5:26pm
Probably needs a thread - modifications to one design and a potential cover-up

http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Americas-Cup:-Oracle-Team-USA-principals-called-to-Hearing-on-Friday/113783" rel="nofollow - http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Americas-Cup:-Oracle-Team-USA-principals-called-to-Hearing-on-Friday/113783

Rumours on Sailing Anarchy from NZ are sounding pretty serious ..... decision should be announced Tuesday

One possible outcome is that Ben Ainslie might end up helming the boat for the AC match on Saturday



Replies:
Posted By: pondscum
Date Posted: 01 Sep 13 at 6:18pm
Another article 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11117632" rel="nofollow - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11117632

'But now strong talk in America's Cup circles suggests that up to six team members may go, including up to four sailors'


Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 02 Sep 13 at 11:40am
Another AC decided in the courtroom?
This is getting so far removed from real sailing it is becoming a bit of a circus, and a poor one at that.


Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 02 Sep 13 at 12:05pm
Whats the betting that if Oracle dont like the Jury's decision then they will take the matter to the US Courts to try and get them to overrule it, this will probably rumble on for the next few months.....
It does look like Ainslie will be OK as he was preparing for London2012 at the time...
The Jurys decision will be quite interesting.


Posted By: pondscum
Date Posted: 03 Sep 13 at 9:24pm
The first 2 races Oracle win will not count (best of 17)
$250K fine (half goes to Bart Simpson's charity)
2 kiwis, an aussie and a dutchman banned from this AC, some referred to their national associations

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN116.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN116.pdf


Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 04 Sep 13 at 8:48am
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/172018/ORACLE-TEAM-USA-penalised-and-fined" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/172018/ORACLE-TEAM-USA-penalised-and-fined


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Sep 13 at 9:06am
So, a different boat, a different race series, yet penalties carry over. If I get black flagged at the Lightning Nationals, will I be forced to count that score at the Minisail Nationals too?

Not a lot of logic to any of this, bar banning the sailors/shore crew who made the changes, assuming they aren't just scapegoats.

I can't see the event being that close - though I have no idea which team will be faster, just seems unlikely that with all the changes and new stuff they will be even - so I doubt the 2 race penalty will have bearing on the end result. Mind, with my track record of prediction, stand by for it being 8 all...


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 04 Sep 13 at 10:23am
Originally posted by Rupert

So, a different boat, a different race series, yet penalties carry over. If I get black flagged at the Lightning Nationals, will I be forced to count that score at the Minisail Nationals too?

Not a lot of logic to any of this, bar banning the sailors/shore crew who made the changes, assuming they aren't just scapegoats.

I can't see the event being that close - though I have no idea which team will be faster, just seems unlikely that with all the changes and new stuff they will be even - so I doubt the 2 race penalty will have bearing on the end result. Mind, with my track record of prediction, stand by for it being 8 all...


It's the same event, the AC45 events were a lead up to the main LV and AC finals. They choose to sail these events in different boats, it would be same in match racing, they're in different boats each event but penalties could still carry over.


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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 06 Sep 13 at 9:46am
Originally posted by JohnJack

Another AC decided in the courtroom?


No courtroom, it's just a glorified protest committee. Highly unlikely to be decisive either.


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 06 Sep 13 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Rupert

Not a lot of logic to any of this.


There is logic.

Aside from sailing instructions, class rules etc i.e. the standard stuff that all sailing events use, in this AC there is a "protocol" which is a kind of super-notice-of-race which encompasses all of the ACWS, LVC and AC itself.

A year or so ago, there was frustration that Grant Dalton was making comments that weren't positive on the direction the Cup was taking. So a clause (60) was added to the protocol allowing pretty much any possible penalty for statements/actions that act against the reputation of the AC. Aside from rule 69 directed at sailors and shore crew, it is protocol 60 that is being used to penalise Oracle Racing as a team.

I and a good few others take a certain amount of pleasure in the fact that's it is a clause that was meant to stop Grant Dalton making fair comment that has been used against precisely those who wanted the clause inserted in the first place.

 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Sep 13 at 12:54pm
OK, so now the TV people have to explain to an already bemused audience that one boat will have to win 11 races and the other boat 9, because they added a bit of carbon to a boat which isn't out racing here. And no, it isn't like the match racing world cup. The previous series results have nothing to do with the results from this series, it is a stand alone event, whatever the paperwork says.

I was very keen to see what was going to happen in this version of the cup a couple of years ago, but my interest has waned as time has gone on, and things like this (however clear they are in the rules) threaten to switch me off completely.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 06 Sep 13 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by Rupert

OK, so now the TV people have to explain to an already bemused audience that one boat will have to win 11 races and the other boat 9, because they added a bit of carbon to a boat which isn't out racing here. And no, it isn't like the match racing world cup. The previous series results have nothing to do with the results from this series, it is a stand alone event, whatever the paperwork says.

I was very keen to see what was going to happen in this version of the cup a couple of years ago, but my interest has waned as time has gone on, and things like this (however clear they are in the rules) threaten to switch me off completely.

Why are bemused as it is exactly the same as a football team being docked 9 points (or whatever it is) for going into administration. That is a penalty against the playing team for something that is not related to what happened on the pitch.


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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Sep 13 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Contender443

Originally posted by Rupert

OK, so now the TV people have to explain to an already bemused audience that one boat will have to win 11 races and the other boat 9, because they added a bit of carbon to a boat which isn't out racing here. And no, it isn't like the match racing world cup. The previous series results have nothing to do with the results from this series, it is a stand alone event, whatever the paperwork says.

I was very keen to see what was going to happen in this version of the cup a couple of years ago, but my interest has waned as time has gone on, and things like this (however clear they are in the rules) threaten to switch me off completely.

Why are bemused as it is exactly the same as a football team being docked 9 points (or whatever it is) for going into administration. That is a penalty against the playing team for something that is not related to what happened on the pitch.


Never got that, either. But it is more like the 1st team being docked points because one of their players when playing for the 2nd team (possibly deliberately) wore studs that were too long.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Laser 173312
Date Posted: 08 Sep 13 at 9:31am
Totally academic as OR won't win a race based on last nights performance. Spitall spent too much time trying to get a penalty which was never given.
There's already talk of Jimmy's agression and suggesions that Sir Ben should replace him, thing is I can't remember JS diving off his boat to start a fight with a photographer. Wink
 
Fantastic coverage of the racing.
 


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 08 Sep 13 at 12:03pm
Are the people complaining that JS is too aggressive the same people who complained that NO wasn't aggressive enough on Artemis? Although it seems to me that he needs be slightly further away and more overlapped at the start or he's never going to be giving them room to keep clear. Equally a bigger overlap might help prevent them sailing over the top at the start.
But then it's easy for me to say that from here... I reckon when they are barely moving in the prestart they are probably still going faster than I ever have in a sailing boat...


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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Sep 13 at 10:49pm
OK, I've just been watching it live, and I'm hooked again!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by Rupert



I can't see the event being that close - though I have no idea which team will be faster, just seems unlikely that with all the changes and new stuff they will be even - so I doubt the 2 race penalty will have bearing on the end result. Mind, with my track record of prediction, stand by for it being 8 all...

Shockederm............ you were saying Wink


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Sep 13 at 8:29am
Originally posted by Reuben T

Originally posted by Rupert



I can't see the event being that close - though I have no idea which team will be faster, just seems unlikely that with all the changes and new stuff they will be even - so I doubt the 2 race penalty will have bearing on the end result. Mind, with my track record of prediction, stand by for it being 8 all...

Shockederm............ you were saying Wink


See, told you! I don't enter the lottery...




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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: xraykong
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 4:54am
Still I am perplexed, incredulous even. Perhaps this is because I am looking from years of experience. And for me the issue is of huge significance. There seems to be a concerted effort to avoid looking like sore losers and show what good sports we are by accepting the loss of America's Cup with dignity and moving on. Highly commendable if all reasonable issues relating to the Rules (Ref:1) are settled and accepted. Taking on the Likes of Oracle or the Measuring Committee would be a daunting and expensive effort. But what if there really is a breach? What if ETNZ were not in a position to pursue this, but have to say something like "we have to trust the Measurers", even though there were apparent transgressions? I do not want to detract from the innovative and legitimate changes Oracle made. Just investigate the dubious. Consider the following please: Prior to racing there were discussions relating to foil control operation. ETNZ, Oracle, and Prada and Artemis were involved in writing the rules so everyone had a level playing field. Oracle  wanted to be able to use an automated foil system. Prada objected strongly to this as it would have been prohibitively expensive. As a result, part of AC Rule Vs 1.1 19.c was written to specify and clarify what was OK and what was not regarding control of daggerboards. This was written by someone who understood control systems. To prevent "closed loop control", (Ref 2) i.e direct input from sensors or electronics to the daggerboard system NOT ALLOWED. Sensors and electronics had to be isolated and not connected and physically separate. It is this difference, being able to connect sensors or electronics directly to daggerboard control that is at issue. It was specifically this that was not allowed by the Rule. The article on A19/A20 of the Weekend  Herald  does nothing to put my mind at ease.  In fact it increases my suspicion that Oracle may have breached this Rule with the co-operation of the Measurers. The description in Herald under "Daggerboard Adjustment", vague as it is, says "electro-mechanical device used to open and close a hydraulic valve". And further, the Measurement Committee gave Oracle permission to use an electro-mechanical actuator to move a valve".  Was this on/off control , or modulating? Was the electro-mechanical device a positioner? If so it is a closed loop control system itself. Shifting the feedback from outside the foil control to inside  would be a breach also. Where did the electrical signal come from to operate this? If from  a sensor or electronics it is a breach. If it was a simpler I/P actuator, where was the electrical signal coming from? Mr Kramer can say "there is no computer driving any surface at all",  as a sensor is not a computer, nor is a positioner. The issue is the difference between open and closed loop control systems. No feedback from sensors or electronics allowed. As an old Automation and Control Engineer, with some sailing experience, I remain convinced there was use of closed loop control. Nothing else explains to me how those foils moved so accurately and at a frequency that was to quick for direct human operation. Remember the first mark in last race? Spithill pulled hard to port in attempt to enter circle with overlap. Oracle, on a reach,  fell off foils  at high speed and buried bows. Then popped up again as if by magic. It was not due to buoyancy, so how did that happen? Superhuman foil adjustment? No use of sensor feedback or stored energy? Remember the limits on stored energy forbid its use to do significant work. Then rounding mark 3 from upwind to downwind gybe, (a difficult manoeuvre that saw ETNZ bury bows once,) Oracle was on rails. Ride height, pitch, roll all too perfect.  I would also want to look at possible  daggerboard bearing adjustment . So as Dennis Connor once said, if your not cheating , show us. Then we had to take a core sample on a boat already passed by Measurers. The non compliance of Oracle's AC 45 Cats was not discovered until after racing finished. How does a stability control system work in manual without feedback? How do foils move so fast and accurate without stored energy and a positioner? Come on Oracle, let the Cat out of the bag. Show us you did it fair and square. Until then I remain sceptical, sorry. Ref:(1) AC 72 Class rule Vs 1.1.19.1 (specifies no significant work is allowed to be done by stored energy) AC 72 Class Rule Vs 1.1.19.2 e.  (specifies no connection to daggerboard system (and others) by sensors or electronics) The effect of these is to not allow stored energy for foil control, (has to come from crew directly), and not allow  direct feedback from sensors or electronics, (has to come via crew) . Ref(2)Open/ Closed Loop control, Wikipedia, or ANSI,(American National Standards Institute), or ISA, (International Society of Automation*

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Pirate


Posted By: Nipper
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 11:18am

Xraykong, I'm sure that Oracle pushed the rules to the absolute limit, but then this is the Americas Cup, and that what happens (NZ hula?)

The Oracle  mid series speed turnaround was outstanding and I can understand why there will be doubts over how that could be acheived, of which Oracle have never really explained what they did with the info from the Boeing ride height indicator and the foils.
 
In the end it was all about money and the resources that Oracle had at their disposal, with Russell Coutts ability to implement what the technical team came up with. Having a load of boffins is one thing, getting their ideas to work can be another. (As was shown with ETNZ with Russell - unbeatable, after Russell - beatable with technical blind alleys)
 
The question will remain as to why Oracle waited right to the last possible moment to do this, as these modifications must have taken more than 10 days to design and manufacture and fit.
 
- Were they too arrogant and believed they were going to be quicker than ETNZ before the cup started?
- Were they concerned about the legality of some of the items and needed to work on the measurerers?
- Were the physical modifications already in hand, but needed more time to complete?
- Did they need to get the data from competing against ETNZ so that they could re-programme the wing, sailing modes etc.
 
My humble view is that is probably a combination of the above.
 
 


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39 years of dinghy racing and still waiting to peak.


Posted By: xraykong
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 11:28am
Yes I understand and respect that but does not address the issue. Some thongs are shades of grey. Ithers are black and white. To establish this only needs the light of day. Open or closed. Let the Cat out if the bag I say.

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Pirate


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 11:35am
That was one hell of a long paragraph, full of whatifs and howcouldithaves, but covering no new ground at all. Oracle had a boat that was harder to sail, but had more potential. NZ had been told before the event started that USA's foils measured. Once they got the team right, and got the foil and wing working together they were faster. I would say "simple", but I suspect getting it working was as far from simple as you can get.

I suspect you believe that there was never a man on the moon, either?


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: xraykong
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 12:08pm
Of course. Neil Armstrong a true hero. This is not a nationalism issue. More of a fight for the traditional values of truth and justice. And may be all ok. So let us see please.

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Pirate


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 2:37pm
No question in my mind the yanks fiddled it, but then that's what they do, how much pressure was placed on the Race Officer to call that low wind race 4 minutes before the Kiwis finished? A lot of money riding on the event continuing and all that..

Nobody comes back like that in sailing, not legitimately, but hey it's going to make a great movie and the Kiwi's should still carry their heads high, hell I really felt for that guy, I wouldn't have wanted to be on that boat for all the tea in china in that last race, there was nothing they could have done, short of ramming them which is what I'd have done.

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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Nobody comes back like that in sailing, not legitimately,



26 September 1983?


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 2:54pm
i was fortunate to be in Auckland for the home coming a couple of weeks back (was hoping my trip would coincide with bringing the cup back), have to say it was the most amazing atmosphere inside shed 10 and to see how proud everyone was of the team was very special.

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https://www.facebook.com/OJSPhoto" rel="nofollow - ojsphotograpghy
https://www.youtube.com/ojsphotography/" rel="nofollow - youtube


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by iGRF

No question in my mind the yanks fiddled it, but then that's what they do, how much pressure was placed on the Race Officer to call that low wind race 4 minutes before the Kiwis finished? 
 
Absolutely no pressure on the RO at all. It will have been in the SI for the event and he had no choice but to abondon when the time limit was reached. Just like the wind strength limit, all out of his control.


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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by iGRF

Nobody comes back like that in sailing, not legitimately,



26 Seeptember 1983?


You'll have to explain that to me, I was proper sailing back then in the real world..

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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 3:35pm
The rules were set well beforehand, and agreed by all. Dumb rules, maybe (especially those not allowing the race times to be changed because of TV schedule) but the same for all.

Looked to me like it all turned on the race where NZ nearly tipped it in. Before that, they had the upper hand. After, all over the place.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: xraykong
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 8:30pm
I wish we wouldn't denigrate the yanks. Lets not forget all the good things. It is more of a compliance issue where it appears there is reason for doubt. All I am asking is for openness.

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Pirate


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 8:48pm
As far as I could tell from your opening post, you were saying that the USA team must have changed stuff illegally to have won. They are saying they didn't put anything new on, and explained how things worked, and where the changes were made to the stuff they did have. Sounds pretty open (at least by AC standards - after all, they might be using the technology again next time), unless you are convinced that the team is hiding something, which you appear to be, in which case you will be asking and asking for them to show something they don't have, but you will never believe they don't have anything to show.



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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: xraykong
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 10:23pm
Yes. But remember Dennis Connor accusing TNZ of cheating in previous cup and successfully demanding a core sample from the plastic fantastic after it was passed by measurers? It was done. I am saying that the way foils operated ( and other hydraulic systems) is unlikely to have been possible without closed loop feedback and utilization of stored energy. So I want a' core sample' please

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Pirate


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 10:36pm
You can demand it all you want, but realistically the only party that's even got half a chance of getting anywhere would be ETNZ. If they don't feel aggrieved enough to take that road, then it simply will not happen.

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-_
Al


Posted By: xraykong
Date Posted: 23 Oct 13 at 7:31am
Not demanding anything. ETNZ do not have resources. They did ask the question.

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Pirate


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 23 Oct 13 at 9:01am
your questions are going to go unanswered. Oracle simply are not going to release the data you want. Face this fact and get on with your life.

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-_
Al


Posted By: xraykong
Date Posted: 23 Oct 13 at 9:25am
Hahaha! I am 62. I work shift. I look sfter a schizophrenic daughter and 85 yr old Mother. I still run 6km/day weather permitting. I get out on the water when I can. My life continues. I ask these questions because someone needs too. Its not an obsession. Not trying to give Oracle a hard time. Today I downloaded latest Java. In order to do so I had to select trust this sender. It is Oracle software. I did. This not a conspiracy theory. Basic questions based on experience and training in a specialust area. I remain skeptical. And so do others.

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Pirate


Posted By: xraykong
Date Posted: 23 Oct 13 at 9:46pm
Perhaps we need to remain focussed on the issues instead of shooting the messenger?

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Pirate


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Oct 13 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by xraykong

Perhaps we need to remain focussed on the issues instead of shooting the messenger?


My Mrs favourite saying that, she says it a lot to our girls, 'the messenger always gets shot', 'don't be anyone's grubby little messenger".

If they want to come out with any message then let them, if they don't, then respect that as well, I think all of us that watched what happened have our own opinions as to why it went the way it did, it can't be changed now.

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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/collections/snowboards" rel="nofollow - Ski boot heaters, edge tuners deals galore


Posted By: xraykong
Date Posted: 24 Oct 13 at 7:51pm
Or can it? The outcome of AC 45 series was. And that was only discovered by chance afterwards.

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Pirate



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