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Team Racing for the Olympics

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Olympic Sailing
Forum Discription: The top end racing in our sport
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10863
Printed Date: 21 Oct 17 at 6:06am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Team Racing for the Olympics
Posted By: JohnJack
Subject: Team Racing for the Olympics
Date Posted: 07 May 13 at 1:49pm
With a weekend of frantic, close to shore, exciting action at West Kirby in the Wilson Trophy. Is't it time that Team Racing was considered for the Olympics?
I didn't get down there this year but have been to watch it the past few years, it is something that is very watchable, full of edge of the seat action.

Fleet racing and Match racing can be a bit boring for the non sailor, I know, I live with one.
However team racing is fast and frenetic where the result can be decided in a second.

It can close to sure (West Kirby Marine Lake), even inland, is easier to cover on TV, is eaiser to have mixed teams, involves more athletes, is relatively cheap.

Everyone always comments about how exciting watching Ainsle sail Schiebt out of a Gold was, and personally I think that's the best Olympic sailing I have seen to date

So then, why not? 







Replies:
Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 07 May 13 at 5:50pm
It comes down to the fact that IOC sets a maximum number of medals and athletes a sport is allowed to hand out. As team racing teams are 6, this would severely limit either the number of countries that could enter or would require fewer classes.< id="adlesse_unifier_magic_element_id" style="display:none;">


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 May 13 at 7:39pm
Other team sports seem to manage this, so if the will was there, I'm sure it could be worked out. However, I suspect it is all too radical for the powers that be, and to be fair, isn't a mainstream activity outside of uni. Mind, skiff sailing is hardly mainstream, is it?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 07 May 13 at 9:28pm
Can you imagine trying to explain a mark trap to non-sailors?


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 07 May 13 at 10:20pm

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Can you imagine trying to explain a mark trap to non-sailors?

"it's a bit like an offside trap"


I know it isn't at all like that, but there's the opening gambit.



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-_
Al


Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 07 May 13 at 10:23pm
Thats because for other team sports the team is integral to the sport, I can't think of any sports in the Olympics with as many disciples as sailing and also has large team competitions. It also depends on how important IOC deems the sport to be how many medals it gets.< id="adlesse_unifier_magic_element_id" style="display:none;">

Also Ed has a point, for a sport where the fine details of the rules are so important explaining it to a non sailor would be a nightmare.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 May 13 at 8:48am
Gymnastics? Cycling? Both have team medals for various bits of it, but not a Goodies bike in sight!

As for the rules, if we went the route of only allowing sports where the rules are easily understood by an outsider, then we would lose half the sports in there. Golf and Rugby 7's are in for 2016 - hardly obvious in the detail, are they?

"That unknown bloke has just been disqualified for moving his ball 2 inches, but Tiger Woods over there is a big crowd draw, so he has been docked 2 shots for moving his to a totally different place and then lying about how many times he has hit the ball with his stick."




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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 08 May 13 at 9:00am
I don't think it is that complicated, the basic rules aren't impossible to grasp, not beyond some snazzy animated graphics and a good commentator, rather than some everysport commentator sitting next to an expert as sailing usually gets.
Its no more complicated than Rugby or some of the Marshall arts

Just think the current fleet racing gets a bit dull where the best action is usually at the start or at mark rounding if boats are close together. Usually its a little processional at the front.

There seems to be an obsession with speed in sailing as a whole (Americas Cup (not the series) is an example). I don't think it makes for a good sport to watch.

Match racing, very technical when the boats are close together, but the never were and frankly very dull over the hour+ a single race took.

As far as medals are concerned, Sailing has no where near as many as some sports 
(Rowing has Singles,Doubles,Pairs,Quads,Coxless Fours & Eights both male and female so that is 14, 48 athletes in all at each colour)




Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 08 May 13 at 9:48am
The big problem is you risk alienating the one genuine audience sailing does have... sailors.  Many sailors have never team raced, the concept is totally alien whereas they can at least relate to the fleet race.

I used to team race at uni- loved it, thought it was far better than fleet racing and I always believed it would be a far better discipline for 'joe public' to watch.  Of course what I hadn't appreciated was that of course I enjoyed watching it- they were my friends and competitors, and seeing who/how/what happened in another race could influence who we would be sailing next.  Throw in a good dose of camraderie from 'representing a university' or a 'youth team' and it's a great way to continue sailing through those years.

Now when I watch team racing I don't find it so interesting.  In fact, the slight changes in the rules/interpretations since I last competed in a team race (c.2002/3 as an 'old boy') mean that I find the tactics difficult to follow.  Maybe it's even changed again.  

For all the knocking of the commentator, I thought the coverage of the Olympic regatta was pretty awesome last year.  I thought the racing was, in the main, exciting to watch- especially the Finns, 470s and Star and frankly, any further deviation from a classic regatta format risks turning the olympic sport into a bit of joke.  That would be the risk of introducing team racing into this mix.  The match racing went down so well it can canned from Rio before it had even had a chance to showcase itself in Weymouth- and tbh, it really wasn't as good to watch as I had hoped, only slightly more interesting than the 49er... 


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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 08 May 13 at 12:06pm
The Olymics can  run using 24 Fireflies.

Big rig (the Americans have extended the mast and fitted a gnav) Men's 2 handed and heavy-weight single-handed event
Normal rig Womens 2 handed and light-weight men's single handed
Storm sails women's single-handed.

All sailors (one reserve) then compete in a team racing event over 2  days.

8 proper sailing events leaving a few medals spares for the air-rowers

KISS


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Gordon


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 May 13 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by gordon

The Olymics can  run using 24 Fireflies.

Big rig (the Americans have extended the mast and fitted a gnav) Men's 2 handed and heavy-weight single-handed event
Normal rig Womens 2 handed and light-weight men's single handed
Storm sails women's single-handed.

All sailors (one reserve) then compete in a team racing event over 2  days.

8 proper sailing events leaving a few medals spares for the air-rowers

KISS


LOL





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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 09 May 13 at 10:34am
Also, given the furore about BA sailing Robert Scheidt down the fleet in Sydney, with accusations of unsportsmanship, can you imagine how well a sport where the aim is to nobble the opposition would go down with the general public? 


Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 09 May 13 at 11:36am
Aren't most competitive sports effectively cases of two competitors trying to 'nobble' each other. As long as it is in the rules and not cheating I dont see anything wrong with it.

In the matter of BA and RS it has to be looked at in the context of the entire series, rather than an individual fleet race.
 
When it is a competitor on competitor which sailing is, and not a individual time trial, or golf maybe. 
Is it bad sportsmanship for an athlete to go out hard in the 10,000m to try and 'break' their opponent because maybe they are a faster finisher, for a snooker player to snooker there opponent.
I suppose chess is full of nobblers as that is kind of the aim of the game.

If you were handicap racing, get a fast start is it bad sportsmanship to cover faster boats behind you
(happens all the time at our Lake, a reason why I hate handicap racing)




Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 09 May 13 at 2:47pm
There's a difference between racing tactics that emphasise your good points, which hopefully doesn't coincide with your opponent's good points, and deliberately hindering him. Obstructing is banned in athletics, interfering is banned in rowing, you can't pull shirts in football, hands in the ruck aren't allowed in Rugby etc etc.  


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 09 May 13 at 3:03pm
Hindering, or slowing the opponent - ever watched the team tactics in cycling's Tour de France, or a track sprint, or short track ice skating, American football, snooker... or the shenanigans in soccer when a corner is taken

There is very little difference n the rules applied in team racing to those used for fleet racing - except that some manoeuvres that would be unseamanlike in fleet racing would be acceptable in team racing.


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Gordon


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 09 May 13 at 4:26pm
Track cycling rules: 

3.2.041 Before the last 200 metre line or the start of the final sprint, riders may avail themselves of the full width of the track but must nevertheless leave sufficient space for their opponent to pass and shall refrain from any manoeuvres that could provoke a collision, a fall or cause any rider to ride off the track.

3.2.042 During the final sprint, even if launched before the last 200 metres, each rider shall remain in his lane up to the finish, unless he has at least a clear cycle-length lead and shall not make any
manoeuvre to prevent the opponent from passing.

And AFAIAA, the point of sprint tactics is to (if following), get yourself in a good position to launch off the leader's shoulder, get the jump on him before he can react. If leading, the opposite - make sure the follower doesn't get the jump on you. 

Road cycling rules: 
2.3.036 Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others.

And there's a difference between the peloton not actively chasing down a break, and having a team bunch up at the front, stop, and not let anybody pass. Haven't see that one happen yet. (Though there was the sit down protest at the time of Festina). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_track_speed_skating#Rules" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_track_speed_skating#Rules
Shows that scoring abbreviations aren't limited to sailing. ST speed skating has DQI for Impeding.



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 May 13 at 5:01pm
Just shows what a great sport team racing is - you can do all sorts of things WITHOUT breaking or massively bending the rules!I've watched road cycling, and assumed it was OK for teams to gang up.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 09 May 13 at 5:35pm
Just as a matter of interest "British Sailing Team" with a coupleof Olympic medals in the team finished 26th out of 34 in the recent Wilson Trophy. Sailing fast in a small fleet does not prepare for the close contact of team racing.



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Gordon


Posted By: Marc di Maria
Date Posted: 16 Sep 14 at 9:53am
I totally agree. There is very little difference in the rules applied in racing team to those used for the fleet racing. One note that I have observed elsewhere in the Regatta in Saint Tropez France.Smile



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