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piglet View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Aug 15 at 11:45pm
I'm sure this one must have been done, but I can't find a relavent thread and we couldn't resolve it from the RRS

2 overlapped port boats arrive at the zone of the windward mark.
Mark is to be left to port.
Can PL force PW the wrong side of the mark under R11
or
Can PW call for room from PL under R18
Thanks
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 15 at 1:41am
No. They are overlapped at the zone.   PWs proper course is to sail close to the mark. PL must give PW room to sail to the mark (rule 18.2( b )).

If PL wanted to take PW the wrong side she needed to do do before the first of tbem reacbed the zone.

PW can call anything she likes :it makes no differeyto obligations or entitlements under the rules.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 15 at 6:00am
To add: mark room when overlapped includes room to tack. 
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 15 at 8:45am
Thanks Brass & Ed, I was right and am owed at least 2 pints of finest.
I was outnumbered at the bar and there does seem to be common misconceptions on this scenario.
BUT
Reading the RRS didn't give us a priority of 18.2.b over 11.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 15 at 3:13pm
From the top & for the bar. 

 18 MARK-ROOM 
18.1 When Rule 18 Applies 
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply 
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack, 
(c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or 
(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies.

If the forum software wasn't so absolutely carp, I would upload a diagram. But I can't. 

So, once the first boat enters the zone, 18 starts to apply. If you're both on the same tack and overlapped, and the mark isn't a continuing obstruction, then none of the exceptions apply - somebody is going to owe mark room to somebody else. 

Next: 

18.2 Giving Mark-Room 
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies. 
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room. 
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), 
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins; 
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped. However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give markroom, she is not required to give it.

18.2.b applies here: the outside boat owes inside mark room. It's this right to mark room that is the reason that leeward can't wipe windward off at the mark. 

What is mark room?

Mark-Room
Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also, (a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and (b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course. However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

As the boats are overlapped, mark room in this case does include room for the inside boat to tack round the mark.

Fetching (in rule terms) is pretty much what you think it is IRL. 

Fetching A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.

However, you should note that the normal right of way rules aren't switched off. Windward still has to keep clear of leeward. The rights and obligations are: 

Windward has a right to mark room, but has to keep clear of leeward. 
Leeward has to give mark room, & still has to comply with 16.1

21 EXONERATION
When a boat is sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled under a rule of Section C, she shall be exonerated if, in an incident with a boat required to give her that room or mark-room, (a) she breaks a rule of Section A, rule 15 or rule 16, or (b) she is compelled to break rule 31.

So if windward is sailing within her mark room, she gets exonerated for a breach of Section A (10,11,12) or 15 & 16. But she can't, for instance, force the outside boat wide so that she (inside) can make a better, tactical, rounding. 




Edited by Presuming Ed - 07 Aug 15 at 4:04pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 15 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by piglet

BUT Reading the RRS didn't give us a priority of 18.2.b over 11.

Its all in the section A introduction. There's been a steady rewrite in recent years which to my mind makes things a lot more consistent, and that's a big part of it.


SECTION A
RIGHT OF WAY
A boat has right of way over another boat when the other boat is
required to keep clear of her. However, some rules in Sections B, C
and D limit the actions of a right-of-way boat.


So section A, which is the fundamentals, windward/leeward, port starboard etc establish who has right of way.

However a right of way boat may not be able to do everything it might want. B, C and D restrict what a ROW boat can do - in other words they override Part A rules to a limited extent in certain circumstances.

Section B is basically about how you can't just ram into anyone you like if you have right of way.

Section C is about having to let the inside boat get through.

Section D is etc...
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