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Individual recall (which wasn't!)

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Andymac View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 6:07pm
Whilst the subject of erreneous individual recalls are currently being discussed, I would like to share what happened to me a few Wednesdays ago...
 
Start of the 'slow' handicap fleet primarily comprising Lasers and Solos.
I was mid-line and, as far as I was concerned, by my transits 100% behind the line.
I got what I felt was a perfect start, only to hear a 2nd sound signal and looking over my shoulder seeing the individual recall flag... As I looked over my shoulder I had a clear view of the committee boat mast which suggested no boat at the committee boat end was further over than me... similarly at the start signal I had a clear sighting of the pin end suggesting that no boat that end was further over the line than me. The simple deduction would be that it was me over the line.
I however was adamant at the time that I wasn't over the line and decided to sail on (and risk the OCS). By the time I reached the 2nd mark, (in 2nd place) the nagging doubts had overcome me so I
decided to 'retire', and sailed off in the opposite direction to the rest of the fleet, only then to about turn and rejoin the back of the race after giving up about 5 minutes. I continued sail round the course without interfering with any other boat just for the fun of it, retaking the majority of the fleet again.
As I crossed the finish line, I acknowledged the individual recall (which I had disregarded) expecting to be scored OCS... Only to be told that I wasn't.  They were signalling a Laser 2000 who happened to be OCS... 2 minutes after their start signal, having capsized upwind on their way out to start and whilst approaching the line to make a valid start.
Begs the question; If I had heeded the signal and returned from my 'perfect' start what redress would I have expected (or received) if any?
As it was, I took myself out of contention for the lead, and eventually credited 6th after handicaps were calculated. Wacko
 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by Andymac

If I had heeded the signal and returned from my 'perfect' start what redress would I have expected (or received) if any

I was about to say none, then I read it again... Are you saying that the sound signal and flag, at your start, was actually for a boat that was OCS on a previous start, two minutes before? Bearing in mind that 29.1 says the flag and signal shall be displayed promptly after the start there's no way that was a valid action. Whether it justifies redress is another matter.

On the other hand you never know if there's a boat that is PMS halfway up the beat or something, so I suppose it could be argued you should know whether you are OCS or not, and if you haven't got courage of your convictions its your fault.

I'm intrigued to see what Brass and Gordon make of this one!
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AlexM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 7:27pm
Was the 2000 in the triangle ?
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 10:24pm
Rule 29.1 requires the Individual Recall signal to come down 'no later than four minutes after the starting signal (that is the starting signal for the OCS boat) or one minute before any later starting signal, whichever is the earlier'.

So all recall signals from previous divisions should be done finish by your one-minute signal.

I don't see how the OCS boat being in the triangle is relevant


Edited by Brass - 04 Sep 12 at 10:27pm
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 8:06am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Andymac

If I had heeded the signal and returned from my 'perfect' start what redress would I have expected (or received) if any

I was about to say none, then I read it again... Are you saying that the sound signal and flag, at your start, was actually for a boat that was OCS on a previous start, two minutes before? Bearing in mind that 29.1 says the flag and signal shall be displayed promptly after the start there's no way that was a valid action. Whether it justifies redress is another matter.

On the other hand you never know if there's a boat that is PMS halfway up the beat or something, so I suppose it could be argued you should know whether you are OCS or not, and if you haven't got courage of your convictions its your fault.

I'm intrigued to see what Brass and Gordon make of this one!
 
Yes Jim, you got that right. The start for the Laser 2000 was 2 minutes previously and my opinion is that the flag and signal should not have been made on our start. Had I interpreted it as myself over the line (since it couldn't have been anyone else in my fleet) and 'returned' then subsequently learnt the truth, then I'd certainly have asked for redress, as you say whether I'd have received it would have been another matter.
 
I also agree that I should have sailed the race regardless and had the courage of my conviction.
 
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 8:46am
Originally posted by Brass


I don't see how the OCS boat being in the triangle is relevant
The "triangle" is only relevant for Z flag (30.2) or Black flag (30.3) starts isn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 8:52am
Originally posted by alstorer

Originally posted by Brass



I don't see how the OCS boat being in the triangle is relevant

The "triangle" is only relevant for Z flag (30.2) or Black flag (30.3) starts isn't it?


I was trying to see if the OCS was actually correct and see if you could of weaseled your way out I thought the triangle applied to all starts.
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 9:05am
it's difficult to see how it could apply to "normal" (P flag) or I flag (30.1, so-called "round the ends rule) starts. In a Z or Black flag start, you've still not started correctly if you're OCS but outside the triangle (not sure if you'd be scored OCS or DNS?); under P or I regardless of where you are you either have to duck or round the ends, making sure your whole boat and crew pass to the non-course side of the line (a boat at the b14 euros messed this one up- which was a pity, as they crossed the finish line a long, long way ahead of the eventual 1st place!)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 9:32am
Originally posted by alstorer

(not sure if you'd be scored OCS or DNS?);

Funny you should say that: I was looking at A11 just now, and it seems to me to suggest that if you launch to windward of the starting line and never actually cross the starting line you should be scored OCS, but if you launch to leeward of the starting line and never cross it you should be scored DNS.

On the original topic: its clear that the RC stuffed up. Whether they did so sufficiently to justify redress is another matter. Its always a problem for a boat that isn't quite over but might have been when another boat is clearly over and doesn't go back.

My instinct would be that you should get redress, but my instinct is rarely a good guide: its amazing how often I see cases that don't match what I should have thought was fair.



Edited by JimC - 05 Sep 12 at 9:38am
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 10:44am
Originally posted by JimC

On the original topic: its clear that the RC stuffed up. Whether they did so sufficiently to justify redress is another matter. Its always a problem for a boat that isn't quite over but might have been when another boat is clearly over and doesn't go back.

My instinct would be that you should get redress, but my instinct is rarely a good guide: its amazing how often I see cases that don't match what I should have thought was fair.

 
I'm inclined to agree with that.
The whole point of redress should be to put the competitors back to a position they would have been in had the mistake not happened. How that is achieved can sometimes be a very arbitrary process.
 
On speaking to the RO at the finish, it appears that the erraneous individual recall was a spontaneous reaction when they spotted the L2000 course side of the startline before they had time to realise that the boat was not part of that start.
I was obviously confused and perplexed by the signal given that my position suggested that I was the closest boat in my fleet to the startline, I was convinced I was not OCS but the signal suggested otherwise... it made it difficult to sail on with a clear head.
Ironically after 'retiring' mid race and then resuming, I had a fabulous sail in the best conditions we had this year. It was a shame that my recorded 6th place didn't accurately reflect my performance.
It was an honest mistake by the RO (which he acknowledged), who do it on a voluntary basis. I saw no point in persuing the matter, especially since no mechanism could exist to recover the 5 minutes that I forfeited midrace.
 
Moral of the story; return promptly if you think you're OCS, otherwise race on regardless.
 
 
 
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