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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AC man overboard; penalty
    Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 1:02am
Interesting, watching some of last weeks highlights.
ETNZ lose a man overboard at the windward mark ( Shocked oh **** ! @10:24)...
and are allowed to leave him!
Penalty is to 'lose' two boat lengths on VMG?
 
What does everyone think of this development?
Should it have a place in yacht racing?
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 1:58am
Well, if you really think that when a little darling in an International Cadet returns her forward hand to the crew pool and finishes without him, then says that 'I saw it on the AC so I thought it was OK', then it might be a problem.
 
But given that these boats aren't carrying spare crew for ballast, and losing a crew member is going to hurt their functionality at some later stage in the race, for very little advantage, and there was probably some decision about whether it was deliberate or not, I don't see a big problem


Edited by Brass - 20 Aug 11 at 2:00am
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 2:44am
You have a valid point Brass, but shouldn't it be a fundamental rule of seamanship to finish with the crew intact?
Granted, on this occasion the crew loss was entirely accidental and didn't materially help them later on, likewise manouvering one of those beasts to retrieve a person in the water wouldn't exactly be easy either.
It just seems counter intuitive to abandon a crewman in the water (however quickly they are retrieved by the safety cover).
I guess the AC can write their own S.I.'s to accomodate this eventuality, but could it encourage crew to take excessive risk?
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 9:21am

The RRS say that you've got recover crew that go over board before continuing your race. In your IC example, the little darling can be protested and disqualified.


To be honest though, the modified rules used by the AC45s in this respect are probably safer in the specific case of those boats and the way they race- presumably if it had been mid leg he'd have picked up by a rib swiftly; at the mark he was able to get quickly to the mark boat and thus out of danger.
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 10:55am

I think this is a carry on from the AC proper when both teams agreed that because of speed and maouverability incase of MOB they wouldnt turn back and be picked up by a chase rib. Im assuming that they are getting teams used to working with the rules before the next AC
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Posts: 1402 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender 541 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 7:55pm
IIRC there was a case a few editions ago where crew were being deliberately 'dumped' on the final downwind leg as they were no longer required for the sailing of the boat and were therefore excess balast.
 
As you say, it's the AC - they do what they want
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Roger View Drop Down
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Posts: 524 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 9:06pm
 
 
Of course there is always the Bermuda Fitted Dinghy, with their unique rule....
 
A unique rule to racing states that the number of crew to finish a race can be less than the number that started. This can encourage boats to have crew dive off the transom during a race to push the boat forward, help lighten the boat and increase performance.
 
 
I seem to remember Y&Y doing an article on the class some years ago, massively overcanvassed dinghies, now with various rigs for different wind strengths, a crew of 6 (at the start at least), very little freeboard and require constant bailing.
 
 
 
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 11 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Andymac

You have a valid point Brass, but shouldn't it be a fundamental rule of seamanship to finish with the crew intact?
Granted, on this occasion the crew loss was entirely accidental and didn't materially help them later on, likewise manouvering one of those beasts to retrieve a person in the water wouldn't exactly be easy either.
It just seems counter intuitive to abandon a crewman in the water (however quickly they are retrieved by the safety cover).
I guess the AC can write their own S.I.'s to accomodate this eventuality, but could it encourage crew to take excessive risk?
 
Firstly, there is no rule in the RRS that obliges a boat to sail in a seamanlike manner or obey 'rules of seamanship', fundamanetal or otherwise.
 
It's not a fundamental rule of seamanship to 'finish with the crew intact'.  It is perfectly seamanlike to have the crew diminish during a voyage for any number of reasons, death, evacuation for various reasons, taken by aliens etc etc.
 
It's not even a requirement of rule 47.2 (yes alstorer, I do know where to find that one), which contains obvious exceptions.
 
People racing sailboats do things that are unseamanlike all the time:  hiking, trapezing, gybing spinnaker poles on heaving foredecks.  There's even a still small voice inside me that says even sailing aboard one of those AC freakboats is an act of poor seamanship.
 
The point of my previous post was to indicate that I don't really think that this sets a seriously bad example to other sailors.
 
That's not to say that I don't dislike the attitude that 'we're AC, we're too cool for rules'.


Edited by Brass - 22 Aug 11 at 1:36am
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 11 at 7:22am
Originally posted by Brass

[QUOTE=Andymac]
 It is perfectly seamanlike to have the crew diminish during a voyage for any number of reasons, ...., taken by aliens etc etc.
 
 
LOL
 
Thanks Brass, I did like that.
 
I wasn't saying that there was a fundamental 'rule of seamanship', rather should there be one?
I am very much of the same opinion as you. My OP was very much an open question seeking opinion on this development.
 
Re; the Bermuda fitted dinghy, is it my poor memory or did this practice of jettisoning 'crew ballast' at the last windward mark also exist in the early days of 18foot skiff racing? has anyone been known to have drowned whilst participating in this practice? or do the sharks get them first?
 
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 11 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Originally posted by Brass

[QUOTE=Andymac]
 It is perfectly seamanlike to have the crew diminish during a voyage for any number of reasons, ...., taken by aliens etc etc.
 
 
LOL
 
Thanks Brass, I did like that.
 
I wasn't saying that there was a fundamental 'rule of seamanship', rather should there be one?
I am very much of the same opinion as you. My OP was very much an open question seeking opinion on this development.
 
Re; the Bermuda fitted dinghy, is it my poor memory or did this practice of jettisoning 'crew ballast' at the last windward mark also exist in the early days of 18foot skiff racing? has anyone been known to have drowned whilst participating in this practice? or do the sharks get them first?
 
 
Yes; a lomg time ago; the 18 footers did dump crew at the end of the last beat.
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