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Windward mark: Both must tack |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
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Quote Reply
Topic: Windward mark: Both must tack Posted: 17 Oct 12 at 2:43pm |
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Quite right, assuming R was smack on the lay, except:
But it's just your assumption, not in the original scenario, that R was smack on the layline: she might just as well have bee a bit above it.
Correct. L/M isn't. It does.
To help maintain our sanity, and avoid endless chains of speculation, there's a convention in judges exams that if the original scenario doesn't contain the facts necessary to establish any particular breach of the rules, then to assume that the facts did not support that breach. Not always appropriate when answering web-posts, but we can probably rely on it here. R isn't complaining about anything, it's M getting upset about being 'forced' into the mark. Also, sometimes it isn't helpful to go exploring a possible breach that would have required a valid protest that probably wasn't hailed for.
All good questions if we want to get to a 'complete' analysis, and if answered, will readily lead to the right answers. |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 Oct 12 at 11:03pm | ||||
Edit: Duh! didn't turn the page.
You can assume that R tacked bang on the lay, or you can assume R tacked a little above and M tacked a little below.
Or you can just assume that, since in the OP scenario, nobody is complaining about rule 18.3( a ), that it's a non-issue.
But you're quite right, if R is right on the layline, and she goes above M to avoid contact or to keep clear, then necessarily she is sailing above close hauled. All the more so if R is outside M and M herself sails above close hauled (allowing for the difference in 'close hauled' for each different type of boat).
And you are also right: the limitations of rule 18.3 apply while ever rule 18 applies, that is while ever one of the boats is still in the zone.
To solve the rules 'problem' that piglet asked, you don't really need to explore whether R might have broken rule 15, or rule 11. It suffices to apply rule 18.3 to identify the limitations on M as clear ahead or leeward right of way boat.
You asked 'Was there enough room between M and R to get M round the mark?'. Because there is no entitlement to mark-room (or any other kind of room under rules 15, 16.1, 19, or 20), whether there is room is irrelevant:
Edited by Brass - 17 Oct 12 at 11:06pm |
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Patrick McCosh
Newbie Joined: 29 Oct 12 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 4:32pm | ||||
Last Sunday the optimists approaching windward mark upwind leg all on port after a big windswitch to the left.
No overlap at the zone, lead boat A is clear ahead. Lead boat A tacks onto starboard to round the mark and boat behind (B) collides into back of A before A completes her tack. Who is give way boat ? |
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Patrick
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RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 4:45pm | ||||
If B hit the back of A, that suggest to me that A was not yet head to wind, hence still had ROW. If A was clear ahead when she entered the zone, and entered the zone before tacking, B must keep clear. 18.2 b. |
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gordon
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 5:11pm | ||||
A on port enters the zone clear ahead. She is entitled to mark room (rule 18.2b), but mark room does not include room to tack.
A passes head to wind and is subject to rule 13. She is no longer entitled to mark-room (18.2c). Until A reaches a close hauled course A must keep clear of B. As B became right of way boat by the actions of A, B is not required, initailly, to give A room to keep clear. There was contact between A and B. A broke rule 13 and should take a penalty. If there was damage to either boat, or injury and B did not attempt to avoid the collision B broke rule 14. |
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Gordon
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 8:02pm | ||||
Good get.
Not so good. At a windward mark, when one of two boats initially on the same tack (with rule 18 applying), changes tack by passing head to wind, boats are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward (or at least the proper course at the mark for one but not the other is [will be] to tack) and rule 18 ceases to apply altogether (rule 18.1( a ) or ( b )). |
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RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 8:25pm | ||||
So, boat A, having passed head to wind, must keep clear of B until she is on a close hauled course, (R13). But if B alters couse during this time, R16.1 would mean A be given room to keep clear.
Room to keep clear presumably might not allow A to bear off to close hauled, she might have to go back onto port? |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 10:18pm | ||||
Yes, if it was possible for A to tack back onto port, she might be able to keep clear by doing that.
But with Optis, I would think that there would be a good chance that if A attempted to tack back, whe would end up in irons, right in the headlights.
I wouldn't want to be B in the protest hearing saying 'sure I hunted up and A could have kept clear by tacking back onto Port' unless these were boats that carried some way and I was sure that I could make a good case that tacking back in time to keep clear was possible.
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