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Harness Haze |
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49erGBR735HSC
Really should get out more Joined: 30 Mar 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1991 |
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Topic: Harness Haze Posted: 31 Mar 05 at 1:28pm |
Best bet is probably keep the knife strapped to the leg but have a quick release clip on harness too, so that should cover us in both ways but I think I'll be reaching for the knife before the clip. As for the RYA advice on 2 people should be able to right any boat in 20 seconds, I don't know how they work that one out especially with the boats that fatal entrapments are most likely to occur, cats and skiffs. I'd love to see the technique applied to an inverted 5-tonner, without anyone trapped underneath |
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Contender443
Really should get out more Joined: 01 Oct 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1211 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 31 Mar 05 at 1:56pm |
I think you have got to try and right the boat first - how else do you know where the person who is trapped actually is. It has got to be worth a try. Also if you dive underwater to try and find them then you also run the risk of getting trapped yourself. I assume the knife to be carried by the person who is trapped who should also at the same time be trying to release themselves. Remember the hook is only one small part that could get trapped. Entrapment also includes anything round your foot, wrist, neck etc. There are plenty of places to get caught. Yes I agree some boats may take longer to right - especially cats. Also masts do get stuck in the bottom. Shallow water can prevent the boat from fully inverting. The RYA also point out that the statistical liklihood of an entrapment is minimal. |
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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764
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lozza
Far too distracted from work Joined: 23 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 262 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 31 Mar 05 at 2:09pm |
The quick release harnesses in theory seem a great idea until you realise that a replacement hook costs about £50. Imagine you release yourself from the wire, where does the hook go.........the bottom. How many times in a season will you feel the need to quickly unhook? This could mean shelling out £100 a year for replacement hooks for an £80 harness! Doesn't add up to me. This problem could be magnified hugely at a sailing schools where students are more likely to panic and lose the hooks over the side. The sums just don't make it worthwhile. Edited by lozza |
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Life's a reach, then you gybe
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49erGBR735HSC
Really should get out more Joined: 30 Mar 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1991 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 31 Mar 05 at 2:45pm |
You're right lozza, conspiracy time. And trying to right certain boats to rectify the problem won't work because most of the big masted boats like 49ers, 5000s, etc definately need 2 people to right them from full inversion and even in that time, the person trapped would have most likely drowned. The problem is you sail with 2 people onboard, one gets trapped and your down to one to right the boat until a rescue boat comes along, which isn't going to happen instantly. Then theres time to right the boat if the rescue boat comes. Everytime I'd go under with the knife to get the crew out and if I was trapped, I'd be cutting myself free or my crew would be down to get me. Its a rule within the 18s that they have to have knife mounted at the back of the boat so that if this scenario occurs, the crew of the boat can rescue the trapped member. The fact they are also not wearing bouancy aids also means its easier to move under the water and being three up, there is always two other members to help the distressed party. I don't think the no bouancy aid idea should be applied to double-handers because there is just one person to deal with an incident if a crew member is in distress. |
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Buzz
Posting king Joined: 14 Jun 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 101 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 31 Mar 05 at 4:28pm |
My only experience of a trapped crew was as follows. The boat capsized and the crew had his leg tangled in the halyards which were loose in the bottom of the boat. The boat was on its side and he couldnt get free. The crew dissapeared under the water still trapped. The helm leapt onto the centreboard and pulled the boat up enough so the crew could breathe. Luckily we were in a rescue boat and saw it happen. We went along side so that two of us could hold onto the centreboard and help the helm. The crew was remarkably calm and didnt panic. The three of us were unable to right the boat with the crew still tangled in the boat. Two of us were able to hold it so that the helm could swim round and cut the crew free. Conclusion - a knife is a great idea, make sure it has an elastic loop (bungee) so you dont loose it. Felco wire cutters in Rescue boats are also a good idea. |
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DannySimpson
Newbie Joined: 18 Mar 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 8 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 31 Mar 05 at 4:44pm |
Did you spot the hidden message?. Don't panic: it never helps. I remember when I was doing some kayak training, one of the exercises was to capsize and swim up into your canoe to get used to being there. Who wants to point out the pros and cons of doing the same to novice sailors so that in the event they find themselves under a boat 'by accident' they have a vague idea what's going on? I know by itself it wont untangle unfortunates, but it will make life easier for everyone and increase their chances if they are not 'stressing'
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OmegaPiZeta
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Contender443
Really should get out more Joined: 01 Oct 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1211 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 31 Mar 05 at 5:33pm |
I think these examples show the diversity of entrapments - you must choose whatever is best in the situation you are in. If you can right the boat and free the person quickly then do it. The second person should come from the rescue boat or any other passing by. The point is to do something quickly and have at least a knife available. Also one other point from this is someone mentions being tangled in halyards - look around your boat and see what ropes you can tidy away and prevent from getting tangled in. Are your ropes too long, not tidied away or in the wrong place? |
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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764
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Scooby_simon
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 31 Mar 05 at 8:24pm |
The only time i've been around when someone was trapped was a very windy 5o5 winter series at Grafham years ago. We were out having a ball in my Hurricane when we noticed the OOD boat from the 5o5 drop (and I mean drop chain, rope and all) the anchor and belt off to assist a 5o5 that had someone caught underneath. All I know is that BOLT cutters were used (carried on all GWSC rescue boats IIRC) to remove the rig of the upturned 5o5 to get someone out. I think the it went something like this : 1, 5o5 over, rescue cover notice that crew has not appeared and so stand by to assist 2, Helm signals that there is a problem (i.e. crew not underneath sorting out stuff) 3, rescue boat come in to assist and decide they need extra help 4, 2nd boat (OOD launch) arrived to assist and bloke is recovered sans 5o5 rig.
This was a long time ago so I cannot be certain of the facts, just that something along the lines of above happened - A quick release harness would not have helped i believe in this case. I totally believe that this whole "quick release" harness was a knee jerk reaction to the Toornado Crew who died when he got caught under the tramp - first person I have knowledge of this happening to - IIRC the reason he died was that they (helm / rescue crew) could not cut the tramp (no knife I assume). I believe the solution is to carry bolt cutters or a knife attached to the boat for this. I am planning to in the future.
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hurricane
Really should get out more Joined: 15 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1047 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 31 Mar 05 at 8:30pm |
can anyone actually think of a case where the harness has trapped someone? i know i am not going to be using a quick realise even when the rule comes in and this is the general view i have heard. what good is a rule when people ignore it because it is pointless! |
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KnightMare
Really should get out more Joined: 08 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1682 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 31 Mar 05 at 9:34pm |
Yeah I know Senoir instructors that have been caught by the harness and had to be air lifts to hospital. Though I do know more people that have been caught in non trapeezing boats. (me included) |
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