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Seamanlike Rounding

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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 05 at 11:09pm

Many thanks for all that.  I'm inclined to agree the Laser should have gybed.  It is unlikely that the Phantom didn't keep clear since he has shrouds and is less able to run really deep like a Laser.  The Laser sailor did confirm that the Phantom did not gybe until hit.

My suspicion is that the Laser luffed a little when the gust hit, hit the Phantom which gybed it and that gybe the Laser.  I would say that once past the mark the Laser was obliged to gybe - even if it meant a capsize.

This is why it is much more difficult to race than just cruise.  I sail a hairy boat which others have sailed at places like Minorca Sailing.  They come back to the UK, buy one and get in a hell of a mess when they start racing.  I'm not saying they shouldn't try, but racing one is a steep learning curve.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Harry44981! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 8:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote grahamd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 11:49pm

So most people are saying that the Laser is in the wrong, he should have gybed despite the conditions. However the basis of the rules are to ensure safety

How about if the Laser, rather than being too scared to gybe decided that the conditions meant that gybing would have put his boat and himself at risk and he wanted to wear round. Would he be justified in asking for room to complete this manoeuvre. Would the Phantom then be in the wrong by insisting that the Laser gybed

How about if this situation  involved a lot more potential for damage than tow dinghies; consider the same situation with a 45knots squall with two 40 footers on the edge of control; could the outside boat insist the inside yacht gybed?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 7:49am

Originally posted by grahamd

How about if this situation  involved a lot more potential for damage than tow dinghies; consider the same situation with a 45knots squall with two 40 footers on the edge of control; could the outside boat insist the inside yacht gybed?

The rules are exactly the same. If you can't race in the prevailing conditions, then don't. Nobody made your hypothetical 40-footer carry on racing in the squall and nobody made him take an inside overlap at the mark. He put himself there.

BtW I've sailed bigger boats quite a lot, so I have been a skipper in that kind of situation.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote grahamd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 11:07pm

I know the rules are the same whether it is Maxis or Oppies. It's the interpretation that I am considering under different conditions. I agree that it is each skippers responsibility to continue racing, but we all make bad calls at different times and end up where we don't want to be.  Are you saying that racing rules force the skipper to put his boat and crew at risk by putting in a gybe, irespective of the conditions?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 11:20pm

Are you saying that racing rules force the skipper to put his boat and crew at risk by putting in a gybe, irespective of the conditions?

No, I would argue that if the skipper did not want to gybe then (s)he should have manovered to come outside the other boat and so not be forced by the rules to gybe.  Or (in the 'big' boat case) dropped the kite early/ and subsequestly dropped the main too if reguired.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 05 at 9:10am

Originally posted by grahamd

 Are you saying that racing rules force the skipper to put his boat and crew at risk by putting in a gybe, irespective of the conditions?

No, because you can always retire at any time. If you cannot carry on racing in the conditions, don't. What you can't do is ignore the rules because it is a bit windy and carry on racing. Once one of the boats has retired, colregs apply, which have nothing to say about mark roundings. Under colregs, the outside windward boat must keep clear.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 05 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by grahamd

So most people are saying that the Laser is in the wrong, he should have gybed despite the conditions. However the basis of the rules are to ensure safety




The rules are about allowing boats to complete the race course in very close proximity. I think the only safety duty placed on boats by the rules is the decision to race or continue racing which is the responsibility of the crew.

Perhaps I should also add assisting those in danager and avoiding collisions if possible.



Edited by Garry
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 05 at 3:30am
Originally posted by grahamd

How about if the Laser, rather than being too scared to gybe decided that the conditions meant that gybing would have put his boat and himself at risk and he wanted to wear round. Would he be justified in asking for room to complete this manoeuvre. Would the Phantom then be in the wrong by insisting that the Laser gybed

18.4 states "until she gybes she shall sail no farther from the mark or obstruction than needed to sail that course."

So you may tack, but you cannot ask for more room to tack than you were entitled to if you were to gybe.  So to complete a tack, the skipper should consider this in advance and create enough room to do so.  With our Laser and Phantom, the laser should have slowed to allow the Phantom to pass ahead, and then he could have tacked once he felt ready to do so.

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