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Inside Overlap

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redback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Inside Overlap
    Posted: 01 Jan 05 at 10:10pm

After many years of Laser sailing I have learnt that out-dragging other boats is rarely possible.  To overtake its best to use a leg to get into contention and then grab an opportunity at the next mark.

This is harder in high performance boats.  In a recent incident I gained on a 3 sail tight port reach with a starboard rounding bouy ahead. There's no chance of going through to windward since in a high performance boat you have to have space to leeward if caught by a gust.   In a Laser I'd wait my chance and get an inside overlap at the next mark but in a high performance boat to put you pole to leeward immediately kills your speed and you drop back several boat lengths.

Any suggestions?



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Garry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 05 at 8:37pm
What about playing angles and going deeper followed by hardening up as you approach the mark? The other alternative is to just overlap to windward at two boat lengths and then slow downand slip inside as you force the inside boat in close out wide. Both options seem tricky and high risk. But even in conventional dinghies reaches can easily become processions, the solution is often to pick the right lane from the windward mark (high or low) depending on what other boats around you are doing.
Garry

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redback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 05 at 11:54pm

Garry, I think you are right we should have gone low right from the beginning.  If the wind had freshened or headed, both boats would have had to drop kites and we would have been in the lead.  If the wind had gone lighter or freed both boats would have kept the kite up but we might have been on a faster angle.  In either case we would have had the inside at the mark if it'd been close.  I'll know next time.

By the way, just for those of you with fast asymmetrics, if you haven't worked it out for yourselves.  Always overtake slower boats by going to windward if the wind is light and never go to leeward of a slower boat unless the wind is honking or you can go a long way to leeward.  Generally high performance boats are not any longer than low performance boats which means off the plane high performance boats will be, at best, no faster.  Take it from me that a Laser 4000 is slower than a Wayfarer if not planning, consequently trying to overtake, to leeward, with the kite up does not work.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iansmithofotley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by redback

By the way, just for those of you with fast asymmetrics, if you haven't worked it out for yourselves.  Always overtake slower boats by going to windward if the wind is light and never go to leeward of a slower boat unless the wind is honking or you can go a long way to leeward. 

Hi Redback,

I think that this advice might work if the high performance boat is about to overtake, to windward, a much slower boat, but anyone who knows what they are doing, in a reasonably fast boat (on PY), who is infront, and is not carrying a kite would not let you get away with this and you would be luffed to the stage where your kite would collapse or you you would have to go to leeward.  In fact, I think that the same thing would apply if you were not carrying a kite but the boat infront, although slower on PY, was more efficient at pointing, as most high performance boats need to be sailed more freely to be faster.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

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Garry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 11:21am
In handicap racing there is often very little point in having a luffing match with a faster boat unless they are going to sit on top of you.  As long as you're more than a boats length to windward or going very fast I would't bother luffing unless it was goung to be tatically advantageous (i.e. just coming into a mark).
Garry

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 2:12pm
The trouble with that is if you let one boat roll you, the next one comes through while you are still going slowly and the next thing you know you are in constant bad air. I'd luff a faster overtaking boat if there were a good chance they'd go through to leeward instead.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 4:28pm

Yes, if you are going to windward you have to make up your mind early.  High performance boats don't have the manuoverability of slower boats and on reaches may have to bear away in any gusts so if you intend passing to windward it has to be by several boat lengths which means making the decision several tens of boat lengths beforehand.

The alternative is to go to leeward if this gives you the inside overlap, but you'll probably stick there and spend the rest of the leg sailing below your handicap - only really an option if the leg is short.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 4:34pm
When sailing a single sail singlehander in club handicap sailing its very important to cultivate a reputation for luffing boats that overtake close to you-) If someone overtakes within 1 mast height to windward then they are performing an agressive manouver that will impact the speed of the leeward boat. Luff them into the clouds once or twice and they learn to go to leeward or supply loads of room. If you're going to be sailing against this guy every weekend for the next few years its well worth sacrificing one race to train them to behave like gentlemen:-)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 5:21pm
Sorry but I generally disagree, mainly because:

1. By the time you get to the windward mark most of the faster boats will be ahead. Those overtaking are likely to have capsized, gone the wrong way or have had problems.

2. If you spend 30 seconds luffing a faster boat that's 30 seconds you've both lost against any boat behind or in front of you.

3. For Anyboat much more than a mast length to windward (2 boat lengths) you don't have full luffing rights (definition of overlap). Anyway you are very unlikely to successfully luff someone that far to windward and going faster without anticipating early and going very high.

4. In handicap racing you are really racing against the clock. Therefore, it is more important to sail the shortest course in the clearest air.

5. Even in class racing a luffing duel can loose you several places.

6. Most asymetrics don't sail the same angles downwind as symetric/singlehanders, if they get their nose below you on a run/ very broad reach they can then force you higher than you want to be sailing (their proper course) and you won't be able to gybe out of it.

7. In marginal planning weather when the trapeze boats are blasting you can sometimes pick up their stern wave by luffing as they go past and get a ride for a few yards.

8. However if someone wants to pass within half a boat length to windward then I would luff - put the board down and take them to the cleaners!

9. BTW I have the same views on calling starboard and sometimes (though not very often) even overlaps at marks- it doesn't always pay to insist on your rights and sometimes slowing down is faster than pushing in, especially when there are big boat speed discrepencies.
Garry

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ChrisJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 05 at 12:36pm

Back for a moment to the original question - how to overtake.

I agree you use the reaching leg to close on them. Then around the buiy you don't actually need to get water, what you need to do is to push them hard enough  so they make a mistake going around the buoy. If they are watching to see if you get an inside overlap, they wont be aware of the buoy coming up, so will turn too quickly and slow down. If they are worrying about the end of the first leg, they wont think about the start of the next (to windward and roll them, or to leeward and sail low and free).

 

Use the leg to close with them, then co-ordinated shouting from the helm and crew to put them off, then slip through at the start of the next leg!

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