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Bureaucracy gone mad

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sailor girl View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sailor girl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 04 at 6:38pm
heeheeheeheeheehee!!!!!!
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Bob L View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bob L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 04 at 8:58pm
It is worth reading the draft regulations. Put "Merchant Shipping Regulations" or similar into Google.
Whilst just about everybody was a consultee the RYA was not. I wonder why. Probably the MAIB knew how they would react. I am glad to see the RYA has taken the action it has. One worrying aspect is an attempt to exclude legal or other representation at interviews if the MAIB Inspector wishes.
My feeling is that this is yet another batch of legislation/regulation that is intended to enhance the power of the body proposing it and is typical of the encroachment of the state on all aspects of our personal and business activities.
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Garry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 04 at 8:39pm
A few points: if you check out the RYA website they were informed that the legislation would only apply to vessels over 45m. Capsize and recovery as part of a training course is not an incident, it is a very controlled and safe exercise (or at least at RYA centres should be). What is more worrying is the possibility that you will have to file a report in order to claim on your insurance.

The quickest way to defeat this would be to ensure every genuine incident gets reported no matter how minor.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 405man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 04 at 8:29pm

 

  Oh well it could be worse, health and safety could be involved!!! I was told by a friend that, they had to have health and safety round at their club. Well being a typical moron, the "officer" stated that they would have to wear hard hats because of the danger of falling masts and booms, how dumb and idiotically moronic is that?!!!!!! The government is so interested in our saftey that they have forgotten that people want to have fun, without having to be bound by a load of legal bull!!!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lucy Lee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 04 at 9:54am

I have one that is worse: a club that will remain nameless was advised by health and safety that they aught to have a defibrillator (medical device that delivers 360 volt shocks to the heart if you have had a heart attack).

What no-one had thought through was that the people operating the deviceand  the victim were very likely to be soaking wet (this is a water sport after all). Given that water is a great conductor of electricity, any attempt to shock someone would almost certainly result in a awful lot of dead / shocked bystanders

 

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Garry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 04 at 7:04pm
Defibrillators save lives.

You should be specially trained to use one (SJA recommend every 6 months)

It is very difficult to get it wrong as they "literally" talk you through the process.

They can't normally be used on moving platforms so it is a clubhouse / shore activity (I believe there is a marine version that can work on a moving platform now)

Yes water conducts but you can take precautions and bystanders should be kept well away anyway.

Lots of public places are now having them onhand for emergencies.

If it saved one life the costs would be worth it, after all it could be you! Furthermore, we only spend a small proportion of our time sailing actually on the water. More important might be making sure the club has a 'critical mass' of first aiders sufficient to deal with any incident.

To those criticising the H&S official they are only doing their job and almost invariably don't fall into the moron category. If the club has done a proper H&S assessment and identified the risks and taken action to mitigate those with serious consequences then there should be no issues. If however, when asked about the risk of head injuries they are told they are morons, convincing them our sport is safe is going to be that much harder!



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Post Options Post Options   Quote 405man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 04 at 8:24pm

     Gary is either:

     a.) h&s officer

     b.) a member of goverment

     c.) a pr representative in some big buisiness.

For a start you can't expect that all clubs can raise the thousands of pounds to buy one of these, that would be a nice little addition to the club membership fee wouldn't it, and also as far as spending more time on the shore, what the....?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 04 at 8:58pm

Wrong on all three (well I wouldn't admit it anyway would I!) - But I am a first aider at work and have been on the wrong side of H&S inspections several times.

Clubs may not be able to afford a difibrillator and I accept that, though I wonder how many have investigated to see if grants are available...  Therefore, the idea of having a defibrillator is not stupid because we do a watersport, but may be unaffordable given the limited resources of many clubs.

Just because the H&S inspector doesn't understand the risks and consequences for sailing as a sport is not a reason to imply he's moronic but rather to work with the system to demonstrate that both the risk and consequences are low.  I assume the club eventually achieved a satisfactory outcome?  I sacked a scaffolding company from site many years ago for calling me a moron when I insisted they only smoke in designated areas - they were smoking next to a very large methane tank at the time! I leave you to make up your own mind on the relative IQs

I believe everyone should ask themselves this (but especially if you do an activity that puts you at slightly higher risk of injury): do you know how to save someones life if their heart stops/drown/fractured skull etc? Since it costs virtually nothing to do a first aid course if clubs organised sufficient numbers there is no real reason why all club members shouldn't have some basic first aid skills.  Its also (in my view) important for club members to raise any H&S issues they see round the club with the committee and also work with the committee to solve them if possible, that way we can all enjoy our sport in a safe environment with little interference from the beaurocracy of the state.

PS I reckon the average split between shore and water time for many dinghy sailors would be 50:50



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lucy Lee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 04 at 9:29am

Garry is right that defibrillotors CAN save lives but this only applies if your heart starts beating in two of three abnormal rythmns and if you see the person collapse and deliver the shock within a few seconds / minutes. Even in a specialist hospital unit, with the patients monitored all the time to detect the abnormal rythmns the chances of saving someone are less than 30%.

If someone had a cardiac arrest due to sailing it is most likely to be due to hypothermia or hypoxia (lack of oxygen e.g. due to drowning). In these cases using a defibrillator is more likely to kill the person than help them.

As far as the risks to the first-aiders and by-standers are concerned even in a hosiptal, where everyone is trained to use them, we see near misses and actual injuries every few months. I have never been to a sailing club with a dry enough floor where I would be happy to use a defib.

I am all in favour of clubs sending members on first aid courses, and I am certainly in favour of people making their own minds up about the risks of taking part in a sport. But I also think it is really important for those in charge to think long and hard about the very real risks involved with some 'safety measures'.

The sailing club in question decided not to get a defibrillator, not because it could not afford one but because it felt the risks were far greater than the potential benefits. 

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Garry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 04 at 7:05pm
Lucy obviously you are much more clued up on this than I am (as I have only done the St John AED course and revalidations). However, the information they provide as part of the course is not consistent with what you say? There might be many reasons for that but SJA present a much stronger case for an AED at a sailing club.
1. In drowning / water environments they imply you only need to dry the chest - although I certainly would want the ground to be dry.
2. They state that 80% of cardiac arrest cases are venticular fibrillation and this can be treated with a defibrillator
3. If you defibrillate within 4 mins there is a 43% survival rate going down to 30% for 5 to 9 minutes.

This implies that for an on-the-water incident an AED wouldn't add any value as defibrillation wouldn't occur quickly enough. However, an incident close to the clubhouse would probably be successful in between 24 and 34% of cases.

Except for the changing room our floors are dry (but we do have a biggish lounge / teaching area) and of course there's outside if its dry. I think the biggest issue next to cost is the ongoing training of sufficient club members.

Edited by Garry
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