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Why trap with kite downwind?

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English Dave View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Jan 07 at 9:28am

Worthy my brain is full.

But let's do it my way for the sake of argument with the crew to lee.

The helm will not have to heat it up so much to fly a hull. The speed wil pick up as soon as it is flying and the apparent will move forward. So you are now in the same situation as with a trapezing crew but already sailing lower.

I know there is a flaw in my argument but I cannot spot it. Is it becasue you can hold more power from the spinnaker when you have a crew out-board?

(Of course the other reason to have the crew outboard is that with his/her feet against the side of the hull there is more purchase to sheet the kite)

Why don't you put the Nacra on ice and bring a Hurricane  (and a spare liver) to Ballyholme this summer for the European Champs?

English Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 07 at 10:02am

Dave, it is all about speed.

Heating up gains a little speed (without crew on the wire), hull flys as AW moved forward, so you HAVE to bear off,, but you only go a little faster

Now with the crew on the wire, the same is true, you head up (more) to get the hull flying, but as you have the crew on the wire (more RM) you drive the boat harder, and so you go much faster, as you are going much faster, the AW moves forward and the hull stays flying so you bear off (remember you are going MUCH faster), but as the crew is on the wire, you can power the boat up more (remember you are going MUCH faster) and so the boat still flys a hull (reemember you are going much faster), and so you bear off a little more (remember you are going much faster), but as you bear off, the boat is still accelerating as the crew is on the wire, more of the heeling moment (HM) is converted into forward power(remember you are going much faster) and so you go faster and eventually deeper too.

It is all about getting the boatspeed up, so you can then move the AW forward (and so have to bear off). 

 

Trust us, it works, but you have to "go for it".  doing this 1/2 heartedly will not pay, it's all or nothing.  Try in in a good F4 and see what happens - crew out, main in fairly tight(leach teltails help), and kite in tight and you fly !!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 07 at 11:31am
Assume you're always going to be flying a hull, so for arguements sake lets take away the windward hull completely. 
Now as there's only one hull in the water to create drag, the only thing left to do is go faster. 
With more speed more speed in mind the helm needs to steer higher but to do this will need the crew on the wire (otherwise a capsize is coming). 
With more speed comes better apparent wind which allows you to steer back downwind with the extra power in the rig driving you. 

Just take the windward hull out of the equation completely and it becomes much simpler to think about. 

Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Worthy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 07 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by English Dave

Why don't you put the Nacra on ice and bring a Hurricane  (and a spare liver) to Ballyholme this summer for the European Champs?



If anyone has a spare SX...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tornado_ALIVE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 07 at 9:45am

Well put Scooby......

Effectively you will be running the same depth but at greater speed which = better VMG.

After the initial heat up, you draw the apparent around so that you are sailing with the same depth.

It is also more important to seek pockets of pressure down wind rather than favourable wind shifts as the pressure will affect your course / depth greater than the wind shifts.......  Different down wind tactics than non apparent boats.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 07 at 10:59am

Ok thanks. I can kind of get my head round that.

But for it to work properly you need

a: A long enough downwind leg

b. To be consistently on one hull throughout. If you drop a hull then you have to start all over again to build up speed and bring the AW forward.

Perhaps that's my problem in that in the general club racing the legs are shorter than in a catamaran regatta. In a BF4 we would be wiring downwind anyway to keep the bows up. It's the BF3 strength where I think it's maybe a judgement call.

I think I'm pretty swift downwind. That's because we drive pretty hard downwind - none of this soaking down business -  and my crew trusts me enough to never dump the kite, foolishly beleiving that I'm savvy enough on the rudders to keep it upright. But I've not been able to establish any significant advantage in medium airs to make trapesing worthwhile.

English Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 07 at 11:05am
Originally posted by English Dave

Ok thanks. I can kind of get my head round that.

But for it to work properly you need

a: A long enough downwind leg

b. To be consistently on one hull throughout. If you drop a hull then you have to start all over again to build up speed and bring the AW forward.

Perhaps that's my problem in that in the general club racing the legs are shorter than in a catamaran regatta. In a BF4 we would be wiring downwind anyway to keep the bows up. It's the BF3 strength where I think it's maybe a judgement call.

I think I'm pretty swift downwind. That's because we drive pretty hard downwind - none of this soaking down business -  and my crew trusts me enough to never dump the kite, foolishly beleiving that I'm savvy enough on the rudders to keep it upright. But I've not been able to establish any significant advantage in medium airs to make trapesing worthwhile.

 

a, Long enough to get the kite up and on the wire for a few seconds ! , you really do go that much faster ! 

b, It takes more practice - look back at the rules-of-thum re wiring up wind and apply them - in a F3 I'd thing in most powerful boats wiring will pay (I'm planning to wire the F16 in less than that !

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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 07 at 12:09pm

Second half of our Icebreaker starts on Feb 4th so I'll give it a go. We did a lot of trapese work downwind last summer but it was an old kite and I got ribbed for showboating so I caved in. Now got new cut kite so might give it another go. It wa always me out there on the wire as I am more nimble than my crew and found it easier to feel the balance out there. Gybes were always awkward though. If I was behind the rear beam then I'd have to bear off a little to take the pressure off the bow(s) so I could move forward. The come inboard while still bearing away slightly and go straight into the gybe. What sometimes happened however was that I bore off too much, The boat would slow and flatten off and I would not only be tea-bagged but thrown forward, losing my footing and starting an impressive but unsustainable body-drag. Crew got quite good at sheeting the kite with one hand while trying to pull me back on board with the other.

English Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SX501 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 07 at 9:29am

Dave just when your trying that unless its blowing dont go all the way to the back because we found at the start of last year It slowed us down because she was sticking the arse in the water to much keep it balanced as best you can. See yea soon for a couple of pint of magners.

Biddy

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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 07 at 9:36am

Biddy

Cheers for that and Happy New year by the way. How's it going with the video from the Donnie Mac? And have you started to gee up the Swords boats for the Euros? What are you doing crew-wise? Great pic of you in a 400 on your website - get a proper hat!

 

English Dave
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