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Boats meeting at the leeward mark

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Phil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 04 at 9:29am
I think that in this case "proper course" would be the one sailed by the wayfarer to the leeward mark. You can also sail this course (shortest distance) The fact that it is slower for the asym to do this is irrelevant! You should go round the outside, get clear air and a neater rounding.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 04 at 9:31am
oh, I meant to add that if you are sailing on handicap then best to avoid boat on boat situations like the plague. The boat that will win the race will appear invisivble by virtue of their avoidance of other boats.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lucy Lee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 04 at 10:22am

I agree with Phil: avoiding boat on boat excitement is the only answer: clean wind & no tedious protests.

There's nothing like the enormous hole in the wind to leeward of an RS400 on a reach for ruining your day in a handicap fleet! I seem to remember a never ending stream of them at the Grafham Grand Prix last year before my legs froze solid to the knees and we had to retire .

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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 04 at 7:47pm

I think I'm right in saying that if I have right of way the Wayfarer would have to sail my proper course.  Also an assymetric like a 4000 cannot sail on a run, yes it is very slow but it is also terribly unstable and has to be avoided at all costs.

I'm sure the comment about avoiding boat on boat conflicts in a handicap fleet is very good advice but this was an open handicap event with probably 60 odd boats so rather difficult to avoid, especially as the slow boats went off first.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 04 at 8:21pm

Wayfarer would have to sail my proper course

Yes it will if you have rights.  We've been having this argument for years with mono sailors when they come across cats gybing down wind. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 04 at 8:23pm

{quote]

I think that in this case "proper course" would be the one sailed by the wayfarer to the leeward mark. You can also sail this course (shortest distance) The fact that it is slower for the asym to do this is irrelevant! You should go round the outside, get clear air and a neater rounding.[/quote]

 

no no no.....

Proper course is defined as the quickest way to the next mark.  thus if the boat sailing hot angles has rights, then the (usually) windward boat has to keep clear.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 04 at 10:47am

Proper course is defined as the quickest way to the next mark.  thus if the boat sailing hot angles has rights, then the (usually) windward boat has to keep clear.

don't forget that the asy is overtaking boat! unless they have established the overlap from more than 2 boat lengths to leeward, then they cannot luff the wayfarer on a dead run. Windward boat in this case can simply sail onward without bearing away any further, and the asym has to lump it.

of course, it the wayfarer was a bit miffed by the appearence of the asym, he could gybe onto stbd with no change of course and remove the discussion!

Phil
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 04 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by Phil

Proper course is defined as the quickest way to the next mark.  thus if the boat sailing hot angles has rights, then the (usually) windward boat has to keep clear.

don't forget that the asy is overtaking boat! unless they have established the overlap from more than 2 boat lengths to leeward, then they cannot luff the wayfarer on a dead run. Windward boat in this case can simply sail onward without bearing away any further, and the asym has to lump it.

of course, it the wayfarer was a bit miffed by the appearence of the asym, he could gybe onto stbd with no change of course and remove the discussion!

I'm not sure what you mean here Phil?

Once the overlap has been established the Wayfarer (if to windward assuming we're not about to round a mark) can be luffed up to (but not beyond) the proper course for the 4000 providing the wayfarer is given the opportunity to keep clear and doesn't need to anticipate the overlap being established from behind.  If the overlap is established from below or by gybing then the 4000 can luff as he pleases as long as he gives the Wayfarer the opportunity to keep clear (although why he'd want to except in team racing I'm not at all sure).  Just because a rule exists doesn't mean you have to use it  The wayfarer wants the 4000 past and out the way as quickly as possible - If it was me and I had room (and spotted the situation in time) I would go high or low early so the 4000 had a clear lane and caused me minimal interference.  Once the overlap is established the Wayfarer can no longer sail his/her best course until overtaken!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 04 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by Garry

Originally posted by Phil

Proper course is defined as the quickest way to the next mark.  thus if the boat sailing hot angles has rights, then the (usually) windward boat has to keep clear.

don't forget that the asy is overtaking boat! unless they have established the overlap from more than 2 boat lengths to leeward, then they cannot luff the wayfarer on a dead run. Windward boat in this case can simply sail onward without bearing away any further, and the asym has to lump it.

of course, it the wayfarer was a bit miffed by the appearence of the asym, he could gybe onto stbd with no change of course and remove the discussion!

I'm not sure what you mean here Phil?

Once the overlap has been established the Wayfarer (if to windward assuming we're not about to round a mark) can be luffed up to (but not beyond) the proper course for the 4000 providing the wayfarer is given the opportunity to keep clear and doesn't need to anticipate the overlap being established from behind.  If the overlap is established from below or by gybing then the 4000 can luff as he pleases as long as he gives the Wayfarer the opportunity to keep clear (although why he'd want to except in team racing I'm not at all sure).  Just because a rule exists doesn't mean you have to use it  The wayfarer wants the 4000 past and out the way as quickly as possible - If it was me and I had room (and spotted the situation in time) I would go high or low early so the 4000 had a clear lane and caused me minimal interference.  Once the overlap is established the Wayfarer can no longer sail his/her best course until overtaken!

 

Exactly what I was trying to say Garry.  It is a mis-conception that the overtaking boat no longer has rights to sail her proper course.  Case 42 (but this is from memory, so is porobably wrong) covers this one.....

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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 04 at 4:02pm

Very good and thank you all for giving it such thought.  But I suspect very few Wayfarer (and I don't want to pick on Wayfarers particularly so let's say boats with stability) understand the problems of sailing a 4000 (or similar).  I'll explain.

Once upon a time boats were designed with static stability,  ie if you held them by their forestay and head-to-wind they stayed upright.  Boats often had sails of a size that they were only over-powered in a 4 or 5.  I'm not knocking these boats they have hull shapes which go well in light winds and the lighter ones can plane.  It is possible however to go faster if you are prepared to have a hull which falls over and sails that produce so much power that they are fully powered up in a 3.  It means that even in a 3 you are sailing with all the constaints of the older designs in a 5.  Due to clever rigs and new materials these boats can still be sailed in 5, but you can imagine they are difficult and you aren't going to muscle it into submission and you certainly can't just drop everything and expect it to round up and stop with the hull under the mast - like the older designs.

I don't suppose what I have said really conveys the demands these boats put on their crews, but what I do know is that unless you have sailed one in a race in a 5 you probably can't realise the pressures of the above situation can put you under.  All I can say is, "Please don't hesitate to keep well clear of a Laser 4000 or similar, if you possibly can?  Please don't argue the crew are already working overtime".  Why do I do it?  I love it.

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