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Gaining an Overlap with the kite pole
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gaining an Overlap with the kite pole
    Posted: 16 Jan 06 at 11:47am
Boat A and Boat B are approaching a port rounding windward mark on starboard, both can fetch the mark. The next leg is a beam reach on starboard. Its a a good F3 and bothe boats are travelling quite briskly. Both are dinghies with asymmettric spinnakers. Boat A, is in the lead, and has a "single string system" wherebye the halyard pulls out the pole as well. Boat B, a few inches behind and to leeward, has a two string system where its two separate options, one to pull the pole out, one to hoist the halyard. Just outside the two length zone B startes the hoist process by pulling out the pole. This gives them an inside overlap. A objects to this means of gaining an overlap.

Both boats agree that pulling the pole out for the sake of gaining an overlap is illegal - or at least you can't gain an overlap that way - the definitions say equipment must be in "normal position" to establish an overlap.

B contends that for them a normal rounding in that situation is to start pulling the pole out outside 2BL in order to be able to drop the pole outhaul and grab the halyard and start the hoist before they reach the mark so that the kite will set as soon as possible on the reach. This is normal practice on their boat. Therefore starting to pull the pole out about 3BL from the mark constitutes normal position for the pole.

A does agree that starting the kite hoist just before the mark is reasonable, but contends that outside 2BL is too early to reasonably go for the pole no matter what the situation. If the kite isn't up the pole is not in normal position if its pulled out.

No argument that the pole was overlapped at 2BL, even though not yet fully out. In the end no protests and an amiable discussion in the bar...

Who's right?
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Ian S View Drop Down
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Posts: 68 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 06 at 12:15pm
normal position  would include having the spinny flying, as that is the purpose of the pole - hence no overlap has occurred as defined in the rules. just my 2 pennorth
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Contender443 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 06 at 12:22pm

If boat B did that then they gave very liitle (or no) opportunity to boat A to  keep clear.

boat A could not foresee what was going to happen so will have assumed they did not have to give water. They were then put in a position where they "may" have to give water and will have not prepared for it. Thus boat B did not give time to A to keep clear.

Remember 2 boat lengths is only a few seconds in most boats.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 06 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Contender443

If boat B did that then they gave very liitle (or no) opportunity to boat A to  keep clear.


That was not considered an issue by either boat.
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Bogg Inne View Drop Down
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Posts: 23 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bogg Inne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 06 at 4:58pm

whatabout this aspect ???/

 

if the pole is considered in its proper  position ( which I reckon is reasonable) the boat poking it out has effectively increased its overall length too , and consequently the two boat length distance (based on the longest boat ) will be cosiderably further further back than non poled out boats , if the action as desribed above caused an overlap at two "normal " boat lengths the ovelap was established too late ie the larger two poled out boat distance would have been passed !

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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 06 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by Bogg Inne

whatabout this aspect ???/

 

if the pole is considered in its proper  position ( which I reckon is reasonable) the boat poking it out has effectively increased its overall length too , and consequently the two boat length distance (based on the longest boat ) will be cosiderably further further back than non poled out boats , if the action as desribed above caused an overlap at two "normal " boat lengths the ovelap was established too late ie the larger two poled out boat distance would have been passed !

2 boat lengths is defined by the first boat to get there - the outside boat in this case.

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Bogg Inne View Drop Down
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Posts: 23 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bogg Inne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 06 at 5:32pm

 

 

 good point, ah well , was  worth a try to confuse things !

 

I'll crawl back unda me rock agin.

still I reckon pole out before mark is in proper position ,me ole pole is out all the time ,

 

 



Edited by Bogg Inne
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 06 at 5:42pm

IMO you would have to be VERY carefull putting out the pole just to gain some advantage; If the pole is out, the kite should be going up too (or maybe at least the tack out).

If you put the pole out, then did not instantly hoist the kite or initiate the gybe, if I was running the protest, you yould be binned.

 

Just my Tuppence.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 06 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

IMO you would have to be VERY carefull putting out the pole just to gain some advantage;



Absolutely, both parties agreed that would not be a valid overlap.

B's contention was that they were going for the pole at the correct point to sail the boat round the track, and that the overlap was incidental - even co-incidental. If they'd been further behind or overlapped anyway they'd have launched the pole at the same distance from the mark.

Edited by JimC
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 06 at 11:56am

Couple of points:

1)  Two-boat length is based on hull lengths not overall length for just this reason.  Change would cause confusion.

2)  Sounds like there was no infringement.  But personally I reckon thta if you go back to the rules things are clearer.  If there is an overlap at 2 lengths then the outside boat must give room.  The question then is when and how that overlap is established.  When is reflected in the traditional advice about onus - the old advice that if you are inside and establising close to 2 lengths don't push in but protest.  If you are outside and claiming a late break then let them in and protest. 

3)  If your are inside and your overlap is pole only it is marginal - hard to prove.  It is also clsoe to being late by definition of the fact you are about to round - or abnormal (and therfore not valid).  So you should call for the water - but not push in if it is refused.

4)  However in this case there is no argument that there was an overlap at 2 lengths.  Therefore I would say that the inside boat had the right to room.  As to the acceptability of the pole position I would say that having raced 400s I would often go pole out early in that sort of situation, as long as the port tack lay line was fairly clear, the view being that bith helm and crew could hike through the bear away without compromising the speed of hoist.

Matt
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