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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Joined: 29 Oct 15
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Not seen at the show
    Posted: 06 Mar 18 at 11:07pm
RS- too many individual items to comment about all of them really... but do have a close look at the toestraps, they are not exactly what you think you are seeing ! (hint - have a look at a Viper image first !)  Also thwart comment - it will be an option, but not one I personally would go for .. but the crew might of course ....  No limits to toestraps, thwarts or not or sheeting choices either is part of the class model.   This is a fair way off being a UK regular SMOD class one and even the sail supplier will be relatively open .. ie largely driven by owner choice.

We will not be marketing it in the UK/EU ourselves and it may not even be produced beyond an initial run the UK for the same reasons now.  When we maybe post some video in time  you may understand some of the other specific features.  The boat outline is only being posted here for interest really... after all we started by saying this thread was a bit of a teaser ! 

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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 18 at 11:33pm
> but that foretriangle looks quite big?
Its sometimes sensible to think of a fine bowed boat as being a more traditional design with a foot added to the bow. The jib looks about right to me. There are all sorts of advantages to having the chute behind the jib. Obvously there are disadvantages too, but especially on a fine bowed boat I think its the preferred arrangement.

> those turning blocks are a long way back.... And cleats?
Absolutely cleats. Beats messing about tucking sheets under stupid bits of elastic upwind, and also handy for light air hoists. I imagine the kite has quite a high clew for better visibility to leeward.


> I guess the sprit is relatively short, not coming behind the mast when retracted?
Don't forget the long J measurement - makes for a longer pole.

> What is the thinking with the jib cleating/fairleads on the deck?
Its better, I'd never go back to the floor arrangements, especialy the sort of over complication on the 400.

Edited by JimC - 06 Mar 18 at 11:34pm
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 18 at 11:44pm
I have always wondered why the toestrap fixings need to be prescribed. The Laser is a horribly uncomfortable boat for relative short-arses like me to sail. The Enterprise, a boat I love, used to only allow the toestraps to be fixed to the thwarts. Even the Blaze (which I also love) has the toestrap fixings mandated. The Blaze does allow a reasonable amount of movement but could still be better, my old OK was more or less free regarding toestraps and was the boat that fitted me best in that respect. I do understand that fixing points have to have sufficient strength so certain things are not practical but, for the vertically challenged amongst us, having the option to fit the toestraps where they allow the most efficient and comfortable sitting out position would make a big difference.

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 06 Mar 18 at 11:45pm
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zippyRN View Drop Down
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 18 at 2:12am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I have always wondered why the toestrap fixings need to be prescribed. The Laser is a horribly uncomfortable boat for relative short-arses like me to sail. The Enterprise, a boat I love, used to only allow the toestraps to be fixed to the thwarts. Even the Blaze (which I also love) has the toestrap fixings mandated. The Blaze does allow a reasonable amount of movement but could still be better, my old OK was more or less free regarding toestraps and was the boat that fitted me best in that respect. I do understand that fixing points have to have sufficient strength so certain things are not practical but, for the vertically challenged amongst us, having the option to fit the toestraps where they allow the most efficient and comfortable sitting out position would make a big difference.

 to prevent Star style 'drop hiking' 
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 18 at 9:24am
But it doesn't, AFAIK none of the boats mentioned (or any other to my knowledge) have any limit on how long the toestraps can be. 
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 18 at 9:53am
 
Originally posted by Cirrus

The bows on this length/type of boat tend to be rather narrow relative to the size of opening that you really need for asymmetric work.   If you place the forestay far enough back to still provide a proper decent sized opening in front of it you lose at least 400-450mm of boat length.  IF it were single-hander with just the main to consider you might well position the forestay behind it or on the 'bar' – of course.  However you might also want a jib of a decent enough size and certainly in proportion to the overall rig.  Crew boats mostly have relatively largish jibs as well .  You could of course have a very small aperture for the spinnaker 'up front' ... it has been done before but that can quickly become the real road to madness, much gnashing of teeth etc and mangled spinnakers.  (mind you great if you supply the sails of course .... Wink  )

Based on experience in other classes we therefore opted for a LARGE opening and to still accomodate a decent sized jib .... key hole surgery may be all well and good in an operating theatre but is not necessarily the right approach on the front end of fastish dinghies - when you MUST raise/drop the sail in a hurry.    Regardless of where you place that aperture 'size' really is important – but it is not something you can compromise on really.

PS - The boom in one of the photos is not carbon (but is in the other ...) - give us a break this is a development boat and we are assessing both !! ... btw -  the boat does not have a single centimetre of 'faux' carbon anywhere yet - I know a terrible 'fail' on our part... However if it helps the builder sell more I am fully prepared to rapidly change my opinion on the sticky patterned fablon stuff ! ....


I can't say I ever found having a throat behind the jib a difficulty in the 29er, 49er or 200. It becomes second nature to make sure you did a low set on port gybe.  Starboard to port gybe drops time it so the kite is coming down before it's blown through, so it falls on the foredeck. Then on port to starboard gybe drops try and let it blow through first.
 
The 800 has the throat in front of the jib, and to do so they've effectively had to extend the boat by 30 cm, not move the jib back as cirrus notes, so the jib stays the same size and sail plan stays balanced relative to the foils. 

For the 800 I don't think this is so much about making port hoists and gybe drops easier as it is about making the skiff easier to sail. The longer bow gives you a bit more buoyancy in the bear away, and it also means you can have a longer pole, which lifts the front of the boat embarrassingly high (safe) downwind. The overall balance of the boat isn't affected much either, as most of that comes by the placement of the rig relative to the foils, as waterline length isn't relevant once planning.  So all in all, a pretty good design feature if you're aiming to make a 49er for pussies! 

The boat pictured doesn't look like it has a big enough rig to make pitchpoling a major issue, so having the throat behind the jib seems sensible. 

Regarding the alloy boom: In a SMOD I see no reason to go carbon. Unlike a mast you can make it plenty stiff by increasing diameter.  It doesn't need variable bend characteristics over it's length, so why waste money on making it out of carbon? I'd expect you could save more weight elsewhere for the similar money to a carbon boom. 


Edited by mozzy - 07 Mar 18 at 9:53am
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 818 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 18 at 9:56am
Regarding the alloy boom: In a SMOD I see no reason to go carbon. Unlike a mast you can make it plenty stiff by increasing diameter.  It doesn't need variable bend characteristics over it's length, so why waste money on making it out of carbon? 

It hurts less when you get your head in the way!
Peter
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 18 at 10:00am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6496 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 18 at 10:07am
Originally posted by mozzy


  So all in all, a pretty good design feature if you're aiming to make a 49er for pussies!


Isn't it a crying shame though, that the world may have thought that way some time back, when the reality is the 800 is a superb boat and the 49er a design disaster.I think an 800 broke the round Sheppey record one year, something 49er couldn't begin to even think about.

Obviously my jibe was aimed at nealg (he sails at my club) and in all honesty I think the s800 is one of the good guys boat wise. Whereas my views on most stuff that comes off the drawing board of that antipodean halfwit is already a matter of record and feel that immense damage was occasioned to this sport during what could have been a critical growth period, with basically anything ending in 9er
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 18 at 10:15am
Originally posted by PeterG

Regarding the alloy boom: In a SMOD I see no reason to go carbon. Unlike a mast you can make it plenty stiff by increasing diameter.  It doesn't need variable bend characteristics over it's length, so why waste money on making it out of carbon? 

It hurts less when you get your head in the way!

Really? A heavier boom may carry more momentum, but a lighter boom will accelerate to faster speed. The total amount of energy in the impact will be the same, and that comes from the sail. 

A alloy boom can be pretty light, even compared to a carbon one once you extend out the diameter. Extending out the diameter will also make it a significantly more blunt object, which I would think would have more effect on the damage should it hit you on your head. 
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