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Anyone know anything about National 18s?

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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 10:43am
The N18 that won the Datchet (which is what we are discussing here isn't it?) was the White Formula owned demo boat. Given that ownership there is absolutely no excuse for it not to be 'whiter than white' (sorry ;) ) in terms of being class legal. Has anybody got the slightest shred of evidence to suggest that it wasn't?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:08am
Sam,
If that is the boat and the race ? no one actually knows for sure ! 
I bet crew are spitting feathers at being thrown into this s**t storm, you would be chuffed given the opportunity to race a new boat in a prestigious race, then to find out it's not legit.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:36am
Originally posted by davidyacht

I note the Datchet Flyer SI’s state “Eligibility requirements for boats are that they comply with their current class association rules” so I guess that certification and measurement process is delegated to the class associations.
People seem a bit hazy about how Class Rules apply to PY races.  Let's have a look at some references.

The PY Introduction tells us:

PY Mission Statement: To allow sailing clubs to offer everyone fairer racing between different classes.

So, PY racing absolutely depends on boats belonging to classes.

The application of PY numbers to classes depends on Handicap Lists (See PY NOR and SI).  These may be the National PY Number List, or local lists prepared by clubs or regional associations, or a combination.  These lists show the handicap number for each of the listed classes.

So that potential competitors can know what their PN handicap is going to be, the NOR, in addition to stating eligibility requirements, should specify which handicap list is going to apply.

Once the NOR has specified that a particular handicap list will apply to an event, it has effectively specified that the classes to race are all the classes listed in that handicap list, possibly subject to upper or lower PY limits stated in the eligibility conditions of the NOR.  These provisions thus specify the 'classes to race' as required to be specified in the NOR by rule J1.1( 4 ).

The NOR, having stated the 'classes to race', the Class Rules of those classes become applicable to the respective classes (Definitions:  Rule ( d )).

The NOR may provide for classes not listed in the specified handicap list  by permitting the OA to assign the class a trial number, and in that case the new class would become one of the classes to race.

To make this a bit more concrete, the Datchet Flyer NOR state

5. Eligibility & Entry: a. Entry is open to all monohull centreboard dinghies with a PY number equal or lower than the Topper and to multihulls and catamarans with a PY between 668 and 1160.

The “Great Lakes SWS” PY numbers will be used in scoring for the event.

Together these tell us that the classes to race are those listed with a PY in the Great Lakes SWS PY list.

The class rules of each class apply to all boats of that class competing.

Originally posted by davidyacht

The SI’s don’t really cover the possibility of boats entered as “non-compliant” so there is a bit of a hole there.

Quite right:  neither the NOR nor SI deal with entries from boats that state that they are non-compliant with the class rules of some class.

Logically, a boat that declares on her entry form that she does not comply with the class rules of a class, should not have her entry accepted.

If, however, the entry is accepted and the boat races, if the RC/TC or a competitor doesn't like the non-conformance, then it is up to them to protest.





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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:45am
Originally posted by JimC

A full formal measuring is a PITA to organise and there's nothing IME very unusual in a boat going some months or more before its arranged. In the case of a class with reasonably loose restrictions, and when the boat has come out of a mould which other legal boats have come out of then my experience is no-one's especially worried and I see nothing wrong with that.

Unless and until the class rules require a certificate.

Then, if you race without a valid certificate you are breaking the rules.

This whole business is why the WS/RYA is promoting In House Certification, where effectively items come from the supplier ready measured. Its a good thing.

Until, surprise, surprise, you discover that shonky constructors are being either stone careless or contract cheating on behalf of owners, and everybody is screaming bloody blue murder.


Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

The builder should (and usually does I believe) have the boat measured before delivery, it would be madness not to as if it fails to measure he hasn't supplied what he was contracted to and it is not fit for purpose. I can see situations where an owner might want to hurry the process along but if the CA require a cert then you shouldn't race it until you have one.......

Hard to disagree with that.

Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by iGRF

Or if they need measurement certificates to enter prestigious events?   

Are you saying the boat was unmeasured,

He's not saying anything:  he's asking a question.

The answer, with respect to N18 is, yes you need a measurement certificate to race:

Section B – Boat Eligibility For a boat to be eligible for racing, it shall comply with the rules in this section. B.1 CLASS RULES AND CERTIFICATION B.1.1 The boat shall: ...  (b) have a valid hull certificate. 

Whether or not this certificate needs to be presented as a condition of entry or other requirement depends on the NOR or the SI.

In the case of the Datchet  Flyer 2017, no such requirement is stated in the NOR or the SI.

or it had no certificate?  There is a difference .

Yes there is.  See above.

I have often sailed with a measured boat that has no certificate;

That's fine as long as neither the class rules nor the NOR/SI require the existence or presentation of a certificate.

I photocopy the signed measurement form, while the RYA process the certificate

If the class rules or the NOR/SI require the existence or presentation of a certificate then that's breaking that rule.

If there is a consensus  among the OA/RC/TC and all your competitors that you will not be protested for this breach, then you might get away with it:  Nobody is ever obliged to protest for a rules breach.

I think that it would be very harsh to disqualify a boat that has been satisfactorily  measured but has no certificate.

I don't see how it's harsh to enforce a class rule if the class association has deliberately decided that a certificate is necessary.

I would suggest that racing an unmeasured boat without an undertaking to produce a valid certificate to the organisers is verging on Rule 69 territory.

Unless exceptionally provided for in the class rules  or NOR/SI, the only time an undertaking can serve in lieu of the production of a certificate is, in accordance with rule 78.2, when:
  1. a rule requires a valid certificate to be produced or its existence verified before a boat races;
  2. the race committee receives a statement signed by the person in charge that a valid certificate exists:
In that case, if the certificate is not produced or verified, rule 78.2 provides that the penalty is disqualification without a hearing from all races of the event:  rule 69 is not applicable.

Again, if local race officials and competitors are happy to go along with it you might get away with it.

Probably best to RAF to avoid the brickbats.

Wouldn't it have been better not to have entered in defiance of the rules in the first place?

Originally posted by davidyacht

... I think I opened my post by suggesting that different classes have different approaches to measurement and certification;

That makes sensse.

For example I know of one class here that is red hot on sail measurement because in their experience, sailmakers, without a hint of cheating, are just damn careless in making sails for the class.  Other classes have particular vulnerabilities in construction and design:  anyone remember Bosun rudders?

I think most of the classes that I have sailed in would take a pretty dim view of sailing an unmeasured boat unless there were extenuating circumstances at National or Open Meeting level 

I think a class that starts bending its own rules at a National Championships is just begging for trouble.

... club racing maybe slightly different

Relaxation at lower levels may well make sense.

 and I have come around to thinking that bums on seats may swing the Laser replica sail argument.

At events where a Laser Class Association is the OA or joint OA, I imagine that ILCA would have something to say about awarding cubes.

If an OA other than a Laser Class Association wants to rune races for a Anything Like a Laser Class, then I'd say jolly good luck to them.

I have no idea the circumstances of the N18 which frankly is not my concern, what does concern me is that it might be considered acceptable to race non-class boats as “class” boats in high profile events.

It seems to me that there are a number of high profile events in the UK where class associations have little influence and control and that, these events have sometimes attracted prominent sailors who are inclined to push the limits of the class rules for the boats they are sailing.

As with any rule breaking, if the competitors accept it without protesting, then it's acceptable.  If the competitors don't like it, then it's up to them to protest.

Many FRP boats now carry many kilos of correctors because they can be built so much lighter than their wooden forebears, their PY’s are set at the class rules weight, but it would be easy to reduce quite a few boats by 10% of the hull weight for “non-class” events to gain an advantage, and nobody would know any better.

Class measurement at events not organised by a class association is probably a bit hit and miss.  I think it's up to the class association, if they identify a risk like you describe, to insert some experienced class measurers into the mix.  But measurement at a PY regatta sounds weird.

I am absolutely not suggesting that this is the case in this instance, but it would be ever so easy if a culture developed where it was considered acceptable to have a liasez faire approach to class rules when racing in handicap events.

Some class rules, for example colour of sails, or, in some cases paper certificates, have no appreciable effect on the performance of boats or the fairness of competition, others like weight, or foil profiles can have an enormous effect.  I think it's up to the class association how much effort and resources they put into measurement and enforcement.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 11:57am
Originally posted by 423zero

Sam,
If that is the boat and the race ? no one actually knows for sure ! 
I bet crew are spitting feathers at being thrown into this s**t storm, you would be chuffed given the opportunity to race a new boat in a prestigious race, then to find out it's not legit.

Absolutely, hence my question regarding evidence. If a prestigious builder lends out a demo boat I'd expect it to be squeaky clean regarding rules compliance, they would be daft not to make it so.....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by johnr

Sailing a laser with a replica sail again is illegal unless the sailing instructions say otherwise

Well, there's a broad sweeping statement.

Let's try it with a little bit of necessary qualification:

 Sailing a laser with a replica sail in a race where the Laser class rules apply to that boat again is illegal breaks the class rules unless whether or not the sailing instructions say otherwise, because the Laser Class Rules do not permit SI to change any of the Class Rules
.

I don't believe that's correct.

Agreed.

 A No-Longer-A-Laser with a replica sail is still allowed to enter a handicap event like any other one off boat unless the SIs say otherwise

I don't think so.  If I understand the sample NOR provided by RYA PY, it's the other way round

If the OA is using the National List and wish to allow classes that are not on the national list, the following should be included:

b. Where the class is not listed on the PN list the OA shall assign the class a trial number based on known performances to similar fleets/ other method prescribed in the NOR. 

Thus, a boat that does not have a handicap number shown in the PY Handicap Number list specified in the NOR for the event, is ONLY eligible for entry if the NOR so states.

I understand that the RYA PY preferred position is that the NOR should always provide that.

Its just a question of entering it as what it is - a not quite Laser with a replica sail - and accepting whatever handicap the RC wishes to give it.


Edited by Brass - 26 Dec 17 at 1:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


. If a prestigious builder lends out a demo boat I'd expect it to be squeaky clean regarding rules compliance, they would be daft not to make it so.....


This.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Has anybody got the slightest shred of evidence to suggest that it wasn't?

If the answers is no I really think that something should be done. This is the fourth trial by internet that has been kicked off by an alleged rule breakage at a sailjuice event.

What that something is I don't know, but it is completely unacceptable to have allegations made about competitors based on heresay by people who were not even there.

We have a protest system within the rules. Use it.

This simply isn't on.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 5:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 17 at 5:23pm
No only has there been no evidence offered, but it has taken more than halfway through the thread for anyone to even identify the event at which this is supposed have happened and hint at the background of the boat that is supposed to have committed the crime.

Is the real crime here that they won a handicap event and that other people didn't?
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