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Another PY question..(pumping content)

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I my be wrong and think you may be referring to World Cup 'Funboards' rather than the IYRU Raceboard class Chris, I'm not aware of any 15 minimum ever in the RB class or it's predecessors Div 1 and Div 2 (and we would have got precious little racing in the UK, as indeed the BFA found with those World Cup type limits on Slalom competition). But you are right, there is less pumping above 15kn (it does go on though, just watch the Olympic RSX boys and girls.....)


Sort of the same thing. The Raceboards were originally known as Pan Am Boards since the Pan Am Cup in Hawaii was the first event with wind minimums - I've got one of Robby's protos for the production board known as the Pan Am. They were then used for World Cup Funboard racing and associated events, again basically offshore reaching races with wind minimums. IYRU Raceboard class grew out of that using the same kit with no wind minimums and later a WW/LW course.

Yes, there were issues with offshore racing with a lower wind limit of 15 (later 12) knots - but it was also an issue for those of us who essentially had a class taken over and fundamentally changed into something very different. And surf slalom became downgraded to flat-water slalom, dammit.

I did IMCO for a while against the Olympians and yes, we did pump a bit in higher winds, but it was nothing like what happens in light winds which is IMHO just 'orrible.


Edited by Chris 249 - 19 Dec 17 at 7:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons



Sounds about right, that's how it was with Windsurfing back in the day 


Was it a mistake? At the time I didn't think so, but there are Windsurfing classes that maintain the no pump rule, I think the Windsurfer and certainly the new Kona class still try, but all it serves to do is reward those who can conceal the action or are favoured by the organising body.



Completely wrong and once again, insulting. 

There is basically NO issue with concealed pumping under the current Windsurfer rules. Basically everyone knows that if one person starts to try to pump subtly then everyone will do it.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by Chris 249



Completely wrong and once again, insulting.


Insulting to who? You? A subterranean Aussi dick. When was the last time you competed in Europe, against say the French, in France?

You seriously need to adjust your attitude.

Convicts ffs.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Chris 249



Completely wrong and once again, insulting.


Insulting to who? You? A subterranean Aussi dick. When was the last time you competed in Europe, against say the French, in France?

You seriously need to adjust your attitude.

Convicts ffs.

When you inferred that the recent organisers of the Windsurfer and Kona classes were inefficient and corrupt and favoured certain people you were definitely insulting. The rules work and there is no corruption and little if any cheating; some may happen in the pack.

I competed in the Italian titles three years ago and in a local nationals last season, against several Europeans. If your point is that you have recent European experience and I don't then it appears you may well be wrong. And I compete against people who took trophies in world titles where you were firmly mid fleet and completely uncompetitive, and I know they follow the pumping rules, do not cheat them, and are not protected by those running events.






Edited by Chris 249 - 19 Dec 17 at 9:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote E.J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 10:02pm
Mr JimC, I was referring to ‘set and go’ in a relative sense in comparison to air rowing. My point was that free pumping has not turned downwind into ‘shoulders day at the gym’, for Contenders it has actually added an element of technique that Dan rightly points out was already essentially there, now we can just exaggerate it and be blatant however only up to a tipping point where excessive pumping is visably slower.

Timing and skill are still better than gorilla panic in the free pump world of Contenders, so it’s not universally a bad idea, I much prefer it. Upwind pumping is still not permitted

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by Chris 249








Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Chris 249



Completely wrong and once again, insulting.


Insulting to who? You? A subterranean Aussi dick. When was the last time you competed in Europe, against say the French, in France?

You seriously need to adjust your attitude.

Convicts ffs.

When you inferred that the recent organisers of the Windsurfer and Kona classes were inefficient and corrupt and favoured certain people you were definitely insulting. The rules work and there is no corruption and little if any cheating; some may happen in the pack.
I competed in the Italian titles three years ago and in a local nationals last season, against several Europeans. If your point is that you have recent European experience and I don't then it appears you may well be wrong. And I compete against people who took trophies in world titles where you were firmly mid fleet and completely uncompetitive, and I know they follow the pumping rules, do not cheat them, and are not protected by those running events.






Only your twisted upside down mind could suggest inference of corruption or inefficiency from that post, it was a simple statement of fact, that try as they may they can't prevent pumping at windsurfing competitions. Go look at a couple of Kona videos if you don't believe me. We don't get Windsurfer up here much but a cursory glance at the italian events will also bear that out. As to who does and doesn't get protested and who does and doesn't get by the protest committee you'll have to accept just maybe I've been in more protest rooms than you down the years and know the drill. (The drill being the local boy never gets protested and if he does he more often than not gets cleared). Now do me a favour and ignore my posts hey if you haven't got a more intelligent argument than 'your wrong'.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 10:50pm
You referred to two windsurfer classes that still restrict pumping and claimed that people in those classes cheated and/or that the organising bodies favoured people. Of course that it an insult to those classes and those who run them.

If you are looking at Italian Windsurfer events as proof that pumping cannot be banned then you are looking in the wrong place -they allow unrestricted pumping!

The fact is that your claim they can't prevent illegal pumping in windsurfing competitions is wrong since they can and do, as I have noted within the last few years of racing at national level where they DO restrict pumping. My post was therefore certainly not just saying "you're wrong". It was talking about current experience.

You have repeatedly claimed there is corruption in the PY system, your very last post implied corruption or bias in protests in and protest hearings (I have no doubt that you have much more experience in the protest room than I have), and.you have repeatedly abused most of the dinghy sailing world. You have lots of form when it comes to insulting people.


Edited by Chris 249 - 20 Dec 17 at 6:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 12:58am
Windsurfing:
No Pumping was allowed in Div 1. At National events, virtually everyone did it to some degree or other. Sometimes the Jury would call someone out for it - seemed pretty random. In regional events, no Jury, and much less pumping, but still a bit - usually by the young 'tyro' who wasn't that tactically sound, but fit. Peer pressure backed up by the occasional protest tended to keep it all under control. 
Mistral as GrF says allowed pumping at all times. 
In the UK at least, the Raceboard Class effectively replaced Div1. When the class allowed pumping it was great for those of us who'd honed the necessary skills in the Mistral class - to start with. Then as younger fitter and ultimately better guys came along, it became a nightmare of unbridled effort with virtually no regard for shifts etc.

Hopefully the Aero Class isn't actually going down this route - surely they're just having a play at the odd open meeting.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 1:47am
Originally posted by Hector

 Peer pressure backed up by the occasional protest tended to keep it all under control. 

That's what seems to happen with the Windsurfer class here. Control by peer pressure and common sense seems to be better than it was many years ago. One suspects that one of the reasons why peer pressure to control pumping could be stronger now that everyone has seen what happens if pumping gets out of control, and since we allow some pumping sailors get to see the downside. Everyone wants to avoid rule bending creeping back in and shredding the tactical aspect as you mention. Even the former world champs and Youth Worlds runners-up don't pump upwind. 


Edited by Chris 249 - 20 Dec 17 at 6:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 17 at 9:35am
I started racing DIV1 back in the late '70s in the NW and raced against Keith (and his bro. Ian) at many regional opens. The smaller guys like us developed a rep for being light wind wizards (well Keith and Ian did) until pumping became commonplace then any advantage conferred by lightweight and finesse disappeared.
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