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Another PY question..(pumping content) |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
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Topic: Another PY question..(pumping content) Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 10:52am |
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I can't help thinking that if you were (and are) treating reaches as "set and go" without the pumping flag up then you were doing it badly wrong. There is almost endless scope for kinetics and wind and wave management within the restrictions of standard rule 42. I'm more of the opinion that the pumping flag was on the lines of "OK, we give up. Half or more of you ******* want to cheat, none of you will protest and there's really **** all we can do to enforce the rule. We give up, have it your own way." Edited by JimC - 19 Dec 17 at 10:53am |
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 11:04am | |
Sounds about right, that's how it was with Windsurfing back in the day
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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Dougaldog
Far too distracted from work Joined: 05 Nov 10 Location: hamble Online Status: Offline Posts: 356 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 11:49am | |
Jim C - be very scared - I am in total agreement with you. 'Back in the day' this wasn't a problem in the Contender fleet as we mainly sailed triangle-sausage and once it got to 12 kts or so (O flag territory) you were looking to get out on the wire and power up along the reaches. On the runs the good guys, as you said, managed wind and wave very skillfully and made big gains - all within what would now be Rule 42. However, if you shift any of the emphasis to sailing w/l, then being able to pump down the runs is one solution - but at the expense of the loss of a great deal of those subtle skills of picking the wave and maximising the drive - but within R42. Has being able to freely pump made the boat better in some way or has brute physicality been allowed to replace those marvelous skills of before. You look at the way the Finns go downwind now, with helms throwing themselves around in the boat and think "we got this one wrong"..... D
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Dougal H
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Chris 249
Really should get out more Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 12:13pm | |
In Windurfer One Designs we only allow pumping downwind in Australia, which is a reasonable compromise since upwind pumping is easier to spot. In Italy they allow upwind pumping although due to the rig it's not that critical apart from in light winds. Having done nationals under both system it seems pretty easy to me which system is better, and it's not the one where you end up suffering to the same extent as in a bike race both upwind and down, while watching the fleet break apart. I hated pumping in Raceboards, partly because I started sailing them under the original rules with a 15 knot wind minimum and normal windstrength much higher, so there was little pumping. Those rules created the class and it was then distorted into a light-wind class with pumping. After a few years sails were designed to work well when pumped at the expense of their high-wind qualities. Blecch
Edited by Chris 249 - 19 Dec 17 at 12:27pm |
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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
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Chris 249
Really should get out more Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 12:21pm | |
Dan, I'm not sure if you've done any windsurfer racing. Sure, Laser sailing is very physical but it's a completely different thing to unrestricted pumping. Surely you've done the same thing we've done when coming home from squad training in light winds where people are, for the fun of it, rolling the boat furiously? It's interesting for a few minutes but nasty after that. When one allows unrestricted pumping how does one then stop light beats from simply being legs where one stands in front of the mast rolling the boat furiously? As most of the other windsurfer racers here have noted, the unintended consequences loom large. In the mid '80s we (ie those on national teams in major world titles etc) had no idea how far pumping would go and how much it would dominate windsurfing if the rules were changed. A few years later we had people who ignored windshifts because it was more important to just keep on pumping. It's a true Pandora's box. I know if they allowed free pumping in Lasers, for example, I'd probably be out of the class like a shot, despite the fact that my background in pumping classes would give me an advantage.
Edited by Chris 249 - 19 Dec 17 at 12:25pm |
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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 2:38pm | |
I my be wrong and think you may be referring to World Cup 'Funboards' rather than the IYRU Raceboard class Chris, I'm not aware of any 15 minimum ever in the RB class or it's predecessors Div 1 and Div 2 (and we would have got precious little racing in the UK, as indeed the BFA found with those World Cup type limits on Slalom competition). But you are right, there is less pumping above 15kn (it does go on though, just watch the Olympic RSX boys and girls.....)
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 3:01pm | |
Not entirely, it came about in the Windsurfer Class but was never sanctioned by a tacit agreement amongst ourselves not to protest each other since it did no good when we went to European competitions and since we didn't know how to do it effectively enough so needed the practise. Later in the Mistral Class we had a sponsor, Carlsberg who insisted that at 12 noon on the Saturday (of a two day weekender)come what may a race would take place, so any Press we'd managed to Garner had something to photograph. The Mistral Class went on to become Olympic so our touch the marks and ok to pump rules carried on, somewhere along the line the UKBSA who were naturally anti being more from traditional sailing eventually also as Jim put it, gave up the ghost. Was it a mistake? At the time I didn't think so, but there are Windsurfing classes that maintain the no pump rule, I think the Windsurfer and certainly the new Kona class still try, but all it serves to do is reward those who can conceal the action or are favoured by the organising body. Should it happen in dinghies, no, there is not the direct contact you have on racing sailboards, so no it shouldn't Edited by iGRF - 19 Dec 17 at 3:04pm |
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Jamie600
Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jun 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 718 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 3:03pm | |
As an aside, I sail at a club that shares racing with sailboards. We all sail the same course, but with separate races going on with boards, various classes and handicap. The boards, sailing to their own rules, pump but obviously the dinghies do not. Several times I have had to give way to a board, say if they are entitled to room at a mark, but can't help but think, if they didn't pump then they wouldn't have got to the mark in time to get an overlap. Double standards?
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RS600 1001
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 3:48pm | |
Not sure that is what makes the difference Jamie, I have sailed and raced both dinghies and windsurfers. Windsurfers are fast when planing, say above, maybe 8-10 knots, a fair bit faster than dinghies (much in the way Int Moths are once they are foiling) but without pumping they are somewhat slower than dinghies when displacement sailing. Allowing light wind pumping means windsurfers can get a bit closer to dinghies in the light. The problem with mark roundings on shared courses is the way dinghies and windsurfers transition. Dinghies always slow a little while turning Raceboards either plane through on a widish arc (at which point they are going a fair bit quicker than a planing dinghy and pumping is not what made the difference) when there is some wind or, in the light, stop dead at the mark (usually right in front of a dinghy) and pivot the board on it's tail before pumping away down the next reach........ Not surprising that the two don't fit well.
TBF though, if you sail a 600? surely there are times when you plane into a mark, gain an overlap on the Waybarge in front and claim water? It's all part of the game Edited by Sam.Spoons - 19 Dec 17 at 3:51pm |
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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Riv
Far too distracted from work Joined: 23 Nov 13 Location: South Devon Online Status: Offline Posts: 353 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Dec 17 at 7:29pm | |
Just out of interest, the OK has the following rule (2017)
"RRS 42.3 is added to: When the mainsail is pumped it shall be done
through the bottom block with at least three parts of the mainsheet system." Does this help at all?
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