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Setting a course around the cans.....

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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Setting a course around the cans.....
    Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 9:54pm
I sail on a small inland lake we usually use the fixed marks plus a couple of inflatables if required. A question arose today (I was asst. R.O.) regarding looping marks,. A leeward mark that would, if applying the shortest route to the next mark, suggest a starboard rounding was rounded to port (the idea being to force boats off to the right of the course). I said they this was a bad idea as 50% would not take notice of the course board and round to Starboard (I was wrong...... I blame 30 years racing windsurfers). I also thought, but was/am not sure if, that was prohibited in the RRS. Do the RRS prohibit looping marks? The only references I can find are that looping a finishing mark is prohibited as "boats finish by crossing the line from the direction of the last mark" (in the RRS) and that looping marks is discouraged (in the RYAs Race Management Guide).

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 10 Dec 17 at 10:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:14pm
Marks should be set so you go round them towards the next one. Simple as, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe others can show me situations where that isn't true?

Why is forcing the fleet to go one way thought necessary? Are they all sheep who simply follow?

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:27pm
The string rule is the one you are looking at.


28.2 A string representing a boat’s track from the time she begins to
approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she
finishes shall, when drawn taut,
(a) pass each mark on the required side and in the correct order,
(b) touch each rounding mark, and
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the
previous mark.
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has
not finished.


The biggest issue is whether the marks are described as passing marks or rounding marks in the SIs. If they aren't rounding marks then the string needn't touch them eg red course. In both cases B is left to starboard.




Edited by JimC - 10 Dec 17 at 10:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:27pm
Precisely..... I thought it was a daft idea and the ROs reasoning didn't make sense to me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:28pm
We do occasionally use a mark to keep boats away from bathing area or a group of fishermen, for instance, bathing area is opposite number 2 buoy, if it is busy we will send boats either to Port or Starboard of  number 2 buoy depending on direction.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by JimC

The string rule is the one you are looking at.


28.2 A string representing a boat’s track from the time she begins to
approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she
finishes shall, when drawn taut,
(a) pass each mark on the required side and in the correct order,
(b) touch each rounding mark, and
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the
previous mark.
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has
not finished.


The biggest issue is whether the marks are described as passing marks or rounding marks in the SIs. If they aren't rounding marks then the string needn't touch them eg red course. In both cases B is left to starboard.



That's exactly what I was thinking but it does it actually prohibit a RO from setting a course following the green line?


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 10 Dec 17 at 10:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:40pm
No, but they do need to specify that B is a rounding mark. To my mind its sensible for club racing SIs to specify that all marks are rounding marks unless specifically identified otherwise.

Edited by JimC - 10 Dec 17 at 10:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:54pm
Looking at Graph, using a rounding mark even further from exclusion zone, which would be A to C would work better than just setting a passing mark.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 12:29am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by JimC

The string rule is the one you are looking at. 

 
28.2 A string representing a boat’s track from the time she begins to 
approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she 
finishes shall, when drawn taut, 
(a) pass each mark on the required side and in the correct order, 
(b) touch each rounding mark, and 
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the 
previous mark. 
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has 
not finished. 
 

The biggest issue is whether the marks are described as passing marks or rounding marks in the SIs. If they aren't rounding marks then the string needn't touch them eg red course. In both cases B is left to starboard. 



That's exactly what I was thinking but it does it actually prohibit a RO from setting a course following the green line?

Originally posted by JimC

No, but they do need to specify that B is a rounding mark. To my mind its sensible for club racing SIs to specify that all marks are rounding marks unless specifically identified otherwise.

Pet peeve (doesn't quite rank with 'crash tack'):  there is no such thing as a 'passing mark'.  There are just 'rounding marks' and marks that are not rounding marks.

Why would you want to set a default of  rounding all marks (although sometimes SI do this through carelessness)?

You should avoid setting looping marks.  If you want boats to sail the triangle around mark B, then simply specify B to be left to port.

If the Race Management Manual tells you not to do it, best not to do it.

Looping around marks should be avoided, because, especially at downwind marks, the boats
that are rounding are blanketed by the approaching boats (to windward of them), have no
speed to complete the rounding and a critical bunch of collisions and frustration may easily
come. In addition, in a looping mark, racing rules are very difficult to comply with, rule 18
switching on and off for different boats approaching and leaving the same mark:
competitors have a big difficulty to realise which rule is in force and who is the right of way
boat and their capacity to react and change course is very limited. As a result, rules
compliance is seriously threatened.

I rather like Rupert's way of putting it:
Originally posted by Rupert

Marks should be set so you go round them towards the next one. Simple as,


Edited by Brass - 11 Dec 17 at 12:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 10:27am
Originally posted by Brass

Pet peeve (doesn't quite rank with 'crash tack'):  there is no such thing as a 'passing mark'. 

Appendix B has the concept of passing a mark [grin]. Agreed the term is not used outside the appendix, but it is useful in this context. I must admit I'm not entirely clear what it brings to Appendix B, but that's maybe because I've never been involved in board competition.

Originally posted by Brass

Why would you want to set a default of  rounding all marks (although sometimes SI do this through carelessness)?


Consider a course like this, which is quite useful for round the cans handicap racing.



If a careless or hurried amateur race team sets the starboard rounding mark a bit to the right of the rhumb line between windward and leeward marks, and the leeward mark is not defined as a rounding mark...

Edited by JimC - 11 Dec 17 at 10:45am
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