New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: So? I am not a number article?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

So? I am not a number article?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 19>
Author
turnturtle View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 05 Dec 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2538
Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: So? I am not a number article?
    Posted: 18 Nov 17 at 7:57am
Great post - it really is quite simple, PY in its current form is as fair as it’s going to get. I respect the time it takes folks to run the system for the wider sailing public, and think some the personal accusations here are frankly over the line of acceptability.


As someone who ultimately does not like racing under a handicap format, I choose not to do it and hope that one day my time will free up to enable me to go get the type of racing I want, in boats I want to sail. It does exist, I just need to put the hours on the road.

However for some people even that isn’t an option, they are maybe sailing legacy boats, or in the case of Graeme, boats the majority of th sailing public have unilaterally rejected (some time ago now).... in that case I’m afraid there really is only handicap racing as an option, and I don’t really get why he feels he needs special treatment?

Edited by turnturtle - 18 Nov 17 at 7:59am
Back to Top
transient View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 21 Aug 12
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 715
Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 17 at 10:05am
Originally posted by turnturtle

it really is quite simple, PY in its current form is as fair as it’s going to get.





Possible true given some of the posts on this forum from key figures.....that doesn't mean it's as fair as it can get.

There was some talk a few years ago about publishing more than one set of numbers. What's happened to that idea? The standard set of numbers is heavily skewed towards lake sailing and is miles out in some cases if sailing in open tidal waters. 

......and please don't say "adjust locally", in most clubs that just isn't going to happen. There is a dependency on Published figures. Sailing Secretaries do not in general want to open that particular can of worms.

......also (if anyone can answer this) with all due respect for the volunteers and the work they do: How much do the RYA spend on administering the current PY set up? I think the answer to that question probably indicates the level of official commitment and interest in the system. 

Edited by transient - 18 Nov 17 at 10:13am
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6496
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 17 at 11:15am
Originally posted by turnturtle

I don’t really get why he feels he needs special treatment?


Well I don't get where it is you feel I've asked for 'special treatment.' If I want to know anything I ask, I know Dan, I've spoken to him before on the subject, I did get hold of one of his programmes for predicting PY, that's not what this is about. This is about why one or two people feel they have the right to block a journalist from learning more about the system. Because they are clearly so holier than thou and you are all dimwits, clearly not on their wavelength. A bit like the Remainer/Leave vote anyone who voted leave is stupid, anyone who dare question the contents of the smoke filled room is also stupid, so stupid we'd better not let one of 'their' reporters in our room...

As for special treatment, I've gone out of my way to bring 'their' system into my world, we have computerised timing and light driven starts, the system mails the results direct to sailwave, so my 'out dated' boat results do get into their system.

But there could be a better system, if they did but realise it, it could be moneytised, not everybody would necessarily need to use it, you could have parallel methods, you could even be forced to join the RYA in order to use it, lots of coulds, but...

Not going to happen with attitudes like this is it?

Originally posted by Daniel Holman


the PYAG does a great job managing the unmanageable.

The current system is the least imperfect one you can have, and I make that statement based on wider socio - political aspects that will always shroud this issue of racing boats in anything other than pure OD.

There are some things in life that are best left to the experts. There are some decisions made by experts that don't need to be publicised  - it doesn't add any value to the process and the majority of those who would seek to change the system don't have a basic grasp of the statistics or the physics. The guys who sit on that committee are experts in the various aspects of understanding, administering and continually improving that system. Most of them volunteers too.


Minds need to open first.

Little more reciprocity little less hubris.

Edited by iGRF - 18 Nov 17 at 11:56am
Back to Top
ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 24 Feb 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 440
Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 17 at 7:14pm
How many members of a clubs local handicap committee wear a disguise on Sundays so they can avoid the constant haranging from sailors who think they have been hard done by ?( but are not willing to get involved themselves)

The perfect local py system? one where every sailor feels their handicap is unfair/favouring similar boats etc etc, at least then we are back on a level playing field!

and the best sailors will continue to be back on the beach first
Back to Top
H2 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 17
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 749
Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 17 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by davidyacht


Meanwhile Dougal is looking for Race Officers to make judgement calls on wind force, direction and tidal conditions.  With no disrespect to our club race RO’s, but simply setting a course with a good beat for the one design fleets can be a challenge.  I can see the brick bats going their way if they program in the wrong course.


With modern technology it is possible to have a simple app that the RO opens and it takes a data feed automatically from free plugs ins like Wind Guru that gives you the wind speed over the course of the race. You could get the rescue boat to take a lap of the course with the app in "course mode" so that it just logged the course and took a GPS read out of where the buoys were. My point is that for this to work it just needs to be as easy as hitting one button on an app and we go from there.

If you dont think it can work then Google "Harrys Lap Timer" which many ludities like me use to work out how fast we drive around tracks here in the UK using a phone app!
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3398
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 17 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

and the best sailors will continue to be back on the beach first

Actually I don't disagree with the rest of your post but (pedant alert Wink) the best sailors will win the race (with the best CT), the guys first back to the beach though will mostly those sailing the fastest boats....  Embarrassed


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 18 Nov 17 at 9:06pm
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
zeon View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 20 Aug 16
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 316
Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 17 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Well I never!!

Right - for the record - the offer to meet with Bas was NOT to discuss the working of the PYAG.

And even if it was - to what end? He could tell me that all was sweetness and light or that the numbers came from a séance in a darkened, smoke filled room - I'd still be none the wiser.
NEXT
I asked specifically if the PYAG looked at/sought out alternatives to the current PY system and  got the answer 'no' - which I correctly reported.
WHAT IS INCORRECT is the use of quotation marks, according to me the comment that "I couldn't be bothered to investigate any further". Did I say that? because if I didn't, I think you should edit your post and remove that and be PDQ about it. Had there been a hint of something for me to investigate, I would have done so, in as transparent and responsible a manner possible.

The previous post has called you out for arrogance - to which I'd now add irresponsibility and a leavening of ignorance.
Is this the true measure of the PYAG? 

David normally I love your post and your articles. This one I found unpleasant. You already know all the answers to all the question you asked. You always say you are open minded and and have complained about being constrained by outside forces, but then out of the blue do this article. Which is not a balanced piece, but a knowing article done in the style of a shock jock or Jeremy Vine. I hoped and normally get better from you. If you hoped for informed debate, you failed. All you did was set off the tin foil hat gentleman. I expected better from you. ☹️☹️☹️☹️☹️
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 17 at 1:29am
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by davidyacht


Meanwhile Dougal is looking for Race Officers to make judgement calls on wind force, direction and tidal conditions.  With no disrespect to our club race RO’s, but simply setting a course with a good beat for the one design fleets can be a challenge.  I can see the brick bats going their way if they program in the wrong course.


With modern technology it is possible to have a simple app that the RO opens and it takes a data feed automatically from free plugs ins like Wind Guru that gives you the wind speed over the course of the race. You could get the rescue boat to take a lap of the course with the app in "course mode" so that it just logged the course and took a GPS read out of where the buoys were. My point is that for this to work it just needs to be as easy as hitting one button on an app and we go from there.

If you dont think it can work then Google "Harrys Lap Timer" which many ludities like me use to work out how fast we drive around tracks here in the UK using a phone app!

If you're looking at working out the wind and tide on the course, even more sophisticated systems were tried (and failed) in the days of IMS racing in yachts. They also tried downloading all the info from the instruments on competing yachts; trailing the fleet with a powerboat downloading all the data via expensive instruments; and using special forecasts. All failed.
sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.
Back to Top
NickM99 View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 26 Apr 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 145
Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 17 at 6:49pm
I defy any app to make sense of the wind we had today (when it occasionally blew) as it came from North, SW and all points in between.  
Back to Top
Cirrus View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Oct 15
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 590
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 17 at 10:07am

The passions raised and often expressed here are a clear measure of how important handicap racing has become today.   

Previously in the ‘class racing era’ the vagaries and methodology of any handicap system simply did not seem to matter that much to many dinghy people – let alone upset them.  However as Dougal says the horse has already bolted and in parallel many have questioned the handicap approaches on offer and perhaps as many doggedly ‘defend’ the status quo however that is defined.    Views have seemingly become rather polarised !

What is now important in such a debate is transparency and openness - and a willingness to accept new thinking occasionally.  Society in general has shifted that way in recent decades and continues in that direction.  This is particularly true for any contentious issues.  Conversely a lack of openness can quickly undermine confidence in any official committee or rule making body - innocent or otherwise.    The not unnatural assumption of many largely ‘kept in the dark’ is that any maintained darkness is to avoid ‘awkward’ questioning.   

Given this background it is difficult in any walk of life simply to now say or imply ‘leave it to the experts – they are the qualified ones’ (and you lot could not even understand  etc etc !).  Dan even suggests   “....  it doesn't add any value to the process and the majority of those who would seek to change the system don't have a basic grasp of the statistics or the physics”.   He is right of course but only in part as a very great many will be very suitably qualified both academically and professionally.   This sort of generalisation about those who might seek any change is hardly rigorous or even reasonable.      Even where questions come from those supposed to be ‘incapable of understanding'  they have as much natural right as anyone else to a hearing and reasonable treatment.    

Dougals request was reasonable imo.   We are all stakeholders here and the RYA’s representatives should perhaps see it as an opportunity rather than a threat.  Closed session courts and closed official committees are an anathema in our society except in a very few specialist instances.   Dinghy handicapping  is hardly one of them !!   The RYA would do themselves a huge favour by letting a bit of journalistic light in.          



Edited by Cirrus - 20 Nov 17 at 10:10am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 19>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy