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So? I am not a number article?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Rupert

There is a much more simple answer to new boats being given a slightly harsh number at an open event than conspiracy. You have a fleet of 100 boats, say. 4 of them are new. You give them generous numbers, and they come 1,2,3,4. You now have 96 unhappy sailors. Give them an ungenerous number. They are likely to be decent sailors, so beat loads of people, and come somewhere in the teens or 20s. Maybe even top 10 if really good. The 4 know they were in boats with ENs, so don't take the results too seriously, and enjoy the racing and showing off new toys. The 96 don't feel they have been beaten by a spreadsheet, and enjoy racing against the new toys.

Some pillock then goes on Y&Y and starts moaning about conspiracy theories. Readers start to think what a bunch of moaning Minnie's the marketeers of said class are, and decide not to bother trying one.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 1:04pm
The historical aspect of the article was interesting, however I am surprised it did not touch on the big change in method for the clubs submitting returns that came in about 5 years ago. The system changed from clubs themselves calculating calculating and submitting recommended changes, to clubs submitting timing data, and the system working out the recommended change automatically.

It is a massive change in the way the numbers are calculated and probably explains a lot of the relative movement in recent years. I am surprised at the lack of access from the RYA and this may explain it but the omission is still significant.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Is the first EN new classes get allocated proposed by the PYAG or the builder/designer/marketing department? I've long held the belief that the class have an input and choose a number that achieves a certain aim. New "skiffy thing" lets choose a low number we know the boat will never sail to so prospective buyers think it's proper fast? New "Oppi beater" give it a higher number so "little Johnnie/Janie's" early results will make them look good?.....

edit :- excellent article BTW  Thumbs Up

Neither in reality. it is down to clubs where the boats are sailed to allocate an EN. The PYAG will not allocate a number without data (and rightly so) and a builder recommnded number should always be treated with a large pinch of salt (but they are damned if they do and damned if they don't).

FWIW the D-Zero sailed on 1010 or 1015 for the first 2 years in the GL series. We all ignored the overall results and concentrated on having fun and racing each other.

In terms of EN clubs should pick a similar boat as a starting point. Difficult for the H2 as there isn't really a comparable boat out there but fir the D-Zero I suggested the Rooster 8.1 (it was the boat I sailed previously so allowed a fairly easy direct comparison of my results).

My gut feeling for the H2 is that it will settle out as a similar sort of speed overall to the D-Zero (having raced against them a couple of times and sailed a H2).

I agree that the H2 will probably end up being similar or the same as the D-0, at our club when it is windy the H2 has the edge thanks to the extra hiking leverage upwind but in the light the D-0 is faster due to less wetted area and the ability to run by the lee. Whats interesting is the wide range of ENs being used by different clubs this year
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by mozzy

There's quite a few good reasons to be a bit hard on ENs. Obviously, the new class will be a minority, so less people are disadvantaged that way.

In a new boat not only is everyone new to it, but the class doesn't have a history of technique development to employ. It takes a while for the collective and individuals to hone technique. This is especially true of skiff type boats. Often a EN that is just out of grasp ends up being about right. And if it's not, it's diplomatically a lot easier to increase a classes PY than reduce it. I really don't think it's a conspiracy to stifle new classes.

Also I don't think there is any manufacture / designer conspiracy. They'd want a fair-ish number so buyers aren't immediately disillusioned. But really I imagine most are aiming to create a new 'class' with large fleets. In which case they would be better focused on the type of sailing the design lends it self to, off the water practicality and cost. 

I agree with this - maybe I am weird but I have always bought a boat based upon its design and whether I enjoy sailing it rather than the PY! If you have a boat that is nasty to sail but has a great PY then it will not be long before it is gathering weeds - I enjoy sailing boats, winning follows if this is the case!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

That shouldn't be necessary unless you happen to have two boats with identical sail numbers. Even then they'd need to be similar in performance before is ceased to be obvious which was which


If only. Misidentification is a significant problem. When it comes to the entry level rotomoulds with multiple rig options like Picos, Fevas and Topazes even the owner may be unsure exactly what model he has, let alone the poor race team. And then the data entry may be done a couple of days later from the paper sheet, and its really hard to work out which is which. Did Pete have a shocker of a race last Sunday, or did he have his radial rig up? How to tell...

Edited by JimC - 17 Nov 17 at 1:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 1:25pm
Fair comment, my assumption was that the boat would be correctly identified on the signing on sheet. However, if you score Pete as a full rig when he sailed with his Radial I'm damn sure he'll be quick to correct you ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by Rupert

There is a much more simple answer to new boats being given a slightly harsh number at an open event than conspiracy. You have a fleet of 100 boats, say. 4 of them are new. You give them generous numbers, and they come 1,2,3,4. You now have 96 unhappy sailors. Give them an ungenerous number. They are likely to be decent sailors, so beat loads of people, and come somewhere in the teens or 20s. Maybe even top 10 if really good. The 4 know they were in boats with ENs, so don't take the results too seriously, and enjoy the racing and showing off new toys. The 96 don't feel they have been beaten by a spreadsheet, and enjoy racing against the new toys.

Some pillock then goes on Y&Y and starts moaning about conspiracy theories. Readers start to think what a bunch of moaning Minnie's the marketeers of said class are, and decide not to bother trying one.

Rupert, you are spot on. This is exactly the Great Lakes approach to new classes.

I promised myself I wouldn’t get involved in any thread to do with this article when I said no to a(ny) journalist attending the PYAG meeting back in the summer as I knew it would be coming, but hey, you only live once so here goes.

To me there are some interesting historical points but with regard to the modern day parts, this article just reinforces how often only one side of the story gets reported.

For what it’s worth Dougal or David or whatever he calls himself asked to specifically attend a PYAG meeting. His offer was declined as we felt it's preferable for the members of the group to be able to discuss anything and everything freely without the worry of their opinions/decisions appearing as click bait on y&y.

Whilst politely declining the offer to attend the PYAG meeting, Bas Edmonds from the RYA offered to meet the "respected journalist" (if ever there was such a thing  LOL LOL ) with an eye to explaining the process the PYAG go through when finalising the numbers.

For anyone unsure - look up the YR2 calcs which are the basis of the PYS website on the RYA’s PY page. It’s been a while since I looked but there are even specimen races to show some typical calcs. The PYAG are then presented with an amalgamation of all the club data from the website for the last three seasons class by class. It should be remembered that PY is an observed handicap system and not measurement based so the rating for a boat is based on previous seasons results which is a fundamental reason why all classes can and do change numbers periodically.

It is a good point that someone else made about the method of returns. The process has changed immensely since I joined the group when paper returns were still the norm. At that point clubs filled in a long winded form and suggested the changes required at their clubs. This required them to effectively have done all of the calculations throughout the year long hand. 99.999% wouldn't have done this so would have been at best guessing any changes needed so opted for the safer route of never recommending any. The PY group accepted that few changes were needed even if they knew some actually were. They just didn’t have any evidence to support this from the clubs using the system. And even if they did, the unwritten rule of the Yardstick group at that time was that Primary numbers only ever moved by a maximum of 1 point, secondary numbers by 2 points maximum and recorded numbers by 3 points maximum for “stability”. We took the brakes off this when we switched to the PYS data based method, but the fundamental sums behind the calculations have never changed. Of course none of this recent history which has we hope considerably improved the PY system, was mentioned.

What also wasn’t reported was that the group does keep an eye on alternatives, and considers requests from any clubs to change or amend things very seriously. At the moment all of the evidence suggests that the balance between accuracy and complication for the overall system is about right. Yes clubs could apply a GPS trace over a local tide chart with wind data stream correction applied but at the moment, most clubs are still writing down finish times on a scrap of paper to transfer to a results program at some point during the following week. Please remember the PY scheme is run by the RYA for clubs, not classes or individuals. If clubs say they want us to look at something we will. To say we are not prepared to look at alternatives is not correct.

I understand Mr Henshall has still not taken up the offer of a meeting with Bas at the RYA, but stating "I couldn't really be bothered to investigate any further" probably wouldn't have added much to the article....

Enjoy your handicap racing everyone. I hope the PYAG/EHAG as it's now known can continue to work to provide the fairest numbers we can for everyone from the data we receive. 

As we've said before, the more data we have to work with the "better" the numbers will be. So rather than throw stones from the outside, if you really want to help to improve the system for everyone, now is the time to press your club in to making sure it has uploaded all of its results to the PYS website as we will soon be starting to look at the numbers for the coming 2018 season.



Edited by chrisg - 17 Nov 17 at 3:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 3:30pm
There you have it, if ever the description Hubris could be personified in one post.

Your arrogance is breathtaking.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 3:52pm
Thanks for pitching in ChrisG - I appreciate your input
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 17 at 4:06pm
I think maybe Mozzy is a little too intense for my taste some of the time but I pretty much agree with him on this point.

"Which brings me to where I disagree with the 'solution' the article points toward. The answer isn't to add complexity sell a false hope of some super fair complex model. It's to admit it's a bit of fun, the results don't mean much, just have fun doing it, then get out class racing when you want proper competition."

Whatever problems sailing and or dinghy racing may or may not have, trying to create some all singing and dancing handicap system with even more variations and complications for people to moan over isn't an answer in my eyes.

Keep it simple and keep it fun. Come on people keep it real as well, it's sailing a mixed bag boats together, how can you possibly get all precious and wound up over such an obviously quirky setup.

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