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    Posted: 15 Nov 17 at 7:26am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by jeffers


If there were not these big events it is unlikely we would run anything.



So you wouldn't for example, think to highlight 3 or 4 weekends/Sundays in advance at Grafham to boost the local fleet race and maybe offer some cross-over / wrap-around training?  £20 a weekend into the tin....  Naturally with a Thursday night green or red flag on the facebook group / email list depending on the forecast???   

It's a rhetorical question of course, and by no means meant as a criticism.  My point is that consolidation into the SJ series is the default option now for a lot of class winter programmes, but there are and always were other options that might be worth re-visiting at your (or any other) class committee meetings.  


Probably not. The idea of the SJ series and the Sailing Southwest series is that they are at different clubs. Isnt that the whole point of this thread? it is titles Travellers Series after all.....

If the Grafham D-Zero fleet or another club decided to run something then the CA would help them to promote it.

Most people can still get their local fix at the weekend in the winter. Some are members of multiple clubs who run all year round just to do this (like our own esteemed Grumpf)....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 9:20pm
Well itís certainly true that when I was doing my bit for northern uni sailing, I actively pushed for our regional BUSA qualifier events to held on salt water or larger lake venues - the amount of lost time to no wind, ice breakers at the smaller ponds wasnít something I wanted to repeat. Fine for the uni opens... and not a problem to lose an hour or two in the morning over bacon, but for time sensitive events we just wanted to get the job done. We were lucky in that my uni sailed at South Shields who were sh*t hot at supporting us, plus Newcastle Uni sailed out of tynemouth SC- again a great club, and despite obvious rivalry,Newcastle Uni could keep their sh*t together and run a decent dayís sailing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by Old Timer

Sea clubs have extended their season to the detriment of the winter pond sailing.

Seems daft because on the shoulders of the season the races are often cancelled where as you could have sailed on the pond.

The main issue with travellers series is people seem to have become lazy although traffic levels these days and the cost of fuel and other expenses have made the hurdle higher ... 

Plus of course people have more than one hobby these days ... less dedication ...



Not daft at all.  The sea is warmer in winter than the lake.

And in some parts (N Scotland) the sea can be the only option, given the amount of icing inland during the winter.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 5:30pm
Sea clubs have extended their season to the detriment of the winter pond sailing.

Seems daft because on the shoulders of the season the races are often cancelled where as you could have sailed on the pond.

The main issue with travellers series is people seem to have become lazy although traffic levels these days and the cost of fuel and other expenses have made the hurdle higher ... 

Plus of course people have more than one hobby these days ... less dedication ...




Edited by Old Timer - 14 Nov 17 at 5:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 5:08pm
There is nothing wrong ... with agreeing to differ on this one !

You are not convinved about the SJ and similar events growth in recent seasons and what it indicates or the significance of it....   Your conclusions are possibly because you, as an individual, simply don't like to attend/compete in them currently.  Nothing wrong with that.   

Some of us might however think you and others are missing out.  The world of dinghy racing has always been changing - little can be assumed as being forever whether it is classes, technology or event organisation.  It is now, in part, about adapting or embracing these changes positively and growing with the 'new'.    And there is nothing wrong with that either !   

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 4:55pm
Having done a few years travelling in a class where the main bulk of boats were the opposite end of the country (most events required at least a 200 mile round trip) I found that it got old very quickly. Especially for us few in the mid fleet who were a performance gap behind them at the front. The Class Opens we attended seemed to attract mainly the top 10 or so sailors in the class, then one maybe two mid fleet and if lucky one lower fleet/newby. We found that we were sailing around by our selves quite allot hanging on to the coat tails of those in front for a lap or two but being a distance off those behind. In the end it didn't seem to be worth the effort as we werent getting any decent racing. Changed class and mainly club race now with the odd excursion to local opens. Its the mid fleet which seems to have collapsed. Not enough carrot maybe.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 4:41pm
What evidence is there that winter handicap sailing is growing?  Years ago, my mates and I used to go on winter memberships to a local gravel pit club - this was always PY based, but I can't really remember caring for the results to much outside of whatever class I/we happened to be sailing at the time.   The local membership always made us very welcome, and of course, reciprocity was on order for a couple of the larger sailing weeks in the summer on the coast.  

I don't think this model for sea clubs and inland co-existence was that abnormal was it?  I'd say a good 50% of the racing membership of our club de-camped to the pond, or sought training through class associations (adults) and the better kids in youth squads etc.

Does this still happen now?  Or have sea clubs extended their seasons?  Do more sea club kids get into squads, thus don't do that much local winter handicap sailing?  

Portland always seems thronging with activity whenever I've been down there for windsurfing.  (I only tend to go in winter months btw).  And that's youth and junior class race training, not handicap sailing.  There's a hell of lot more than 10 or so guys and 10 or so girls down there like the youth squads of the 80's and 90's.   There's enough colloquial evidence that the RYA plunder the youth of local club racing the rest of year, I'd bet a pound to a penny the same accusations stand up for winter sailing.

I think you need to be very careful simply comparing the entry stats from say a Bloody Mary pre-amalgamation and post to come to the conclusion winter handicap sailing is GROWING Mike.

These stats might work in isolation to showcase the event in more positive lights itself, but I wouldn't draw conclusions that it represents a major shift change in OVERALL participation and reversing OVERALL decline - quite the contrary, it shows that this is all that's really left for many adult racers looking to get away at the weekend in winter- in other words, consolidation.  


Edited by turnturtle - 14 Nov 17 at 4:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 4:18pm
I'm not concerning myself with positives or negatives, neither am I trying to personalise it in any way.  I am simply suggesting that rather than looking to run (or share with similar craft) a winter programme consisting of winter championships, winter opens, icicle races, winter training days and all the other myriad of names for meeting up that have come and gone over the years; a lot of classes are defaulting to the SJ series under the auspices of PY for their winter programme - this is consolidation whichever way you cut it.   

I'll leave it to others to draw their own conclusions if this is positive or not for competitive sailing, or at the very least, the classes they sail.   

Personally my favourite winter 'events' were class organised training days in several one designs I've owned - I always got far more enjoyment out of them than travelling to a.n.other pond to do a handicap race, but each to their own.    


Edited by turnturtle - 14 Nov 17 at 4:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 3:34pm
so you guys are seriously suggesting that some classes don't utilise these events as part of their winter programme???

Your contention of consolidation is turning into a surreal circular argument.   You don't support the SJ series one moment but now point out that some classes utilise the excellent organisation and format - as class events within the SJ events.  Further are you really sugegsting that these winter events are now somehow superior to the summer programmes of the vast majority of classes ?   That is very certainly not true.....

Does it matter  if they are used by some classes and are not for others anyway?  The underlying point is that winter handicap event sailing is GROWING and gaining in support and popularity fast.  Attendance is well up and beyond that managed by the constituent stand-alone versions enjoyed in previous decades.  Many events sell out well before the first visiting boat is hitched to a trailer ....This is simply NOT evidence of  sport consolidation or even decline as you have suggested.  That may be happening at Summer single-event opens in some classes, but that is a different issue.  It has very little at all to do with winter attendance at these SJ and similar events

But of course if you are now becomming convinced that the SJ series can play a useful role to all vibrant and practive classes then why on earth not do a few yourself this winter  ?    Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 17 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by jeffers

I think the point is that because there are a series of events some classes have chosen to run a winter series off the back of them. This is what the D-Zero class has done and continues to do.

If there were not these big events it is unlikely we would run anything.

As a side note anyone know if the Steve Nicks is happening in 2018? Still nothing on their website about it.

On the NSC website, but the online entry isn't open yet.http://www.northamptonsailingclub.org/index.asp?selection=Calendar&cy=2018
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