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NickM99 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 9:19pm
Others have said it all. Stick with PY. I think bringing in local PY is only justified if A) you have a lot of data and B) the local conditions are clearly going to favour a type of boat (e.g. a 3 knot tide will hamper smaller/slower boats; an I14 is not going to win on a small pond.) But is most cases people will sail boats suitable for the water their SC is on.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

GL just seems to be PY but based on a smaller selection set and with an arguable degree of commercial interest...Quite a charge to make .... Evidence of  'commercial interest' at least then please ?  


Commercially interested poster defends the indefensible shock horror probe!

Edited by iGRF - 30 Oct 17 at 9:36pm
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 11:15pm

Commercially interested poster defends the indefensible shock horror probe!

Could you possibly explain your 'logic' GRFi .....  I have NO commercial interest whatsoever (Keep up with things for goodness sake ...)  I am just a regular punter just like you and have been for quite some time .....

Sorry about that, got carried away for a minute and nearly entered that parallel universe of yours  myself .   So OK maybe, on seconds thoughts, “a regular punter IF NOT quite like you”...     And what is the 'indefensible' bit about  anyway ?   Either handicap numbers are based on a methodology or they are not  ... so do indulge us a tad further and try explaining  exactly what you mean.  (And I don't mean by 'explanation'  a 'don't like/understand' one)

And I only rattled the cage momentarily to see if you were lurking out there in the gloom given the date and time of year ..... Happy Birthday  Confused

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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 7:09am
I don't know the answer to Oinks original question, but his/her situation is very similar to mine. We have traditionally altered PY numbers to "better" suit our lake and this is a job I have now reluctantly inherited. We have currently rejected the Great Lakes scheme essentially for fear of the new and lack of "officialness", reverting to standard PYs is considered a retrograde step but to avoid personal handicapping tweaking them requires a degree of subjectiveness.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Eisvogel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 9:05am
Originally posted by andymck

 We seem to be very reluctant to share the chocolates in sailing. In other club individual sports there is often a system to adjust individual performance, and an inclusivity for prizes.

Good point. It can be a bit disheartening if the same two or three sailors win all the trophies on Awards Night. And I'm sure they know they're good sailors already anyway. Obviously it should not go the other way, as the anti-PC brigade always whines (that everyone, even the last one, has to get a trophy), but making it harder for last year's winner to get to the top spot again can only be good for progress.

Has anybody else tried the PRATT racing (http://go.prattracing.com/)? It sounds like a good approach, and is probably as perfect as any PY score will ever be...

My own approach to handicap racing is that I generally know if I did well or not, regardless of position, so I don't really care much. It's nice to see that I get closer to boats that were previously way further ahead of me, so I know I'm progressing. Though I doubt that I will ever get into the chocolates at our club.

Fleet racing, of course, is different. That's why I like going to Open Meetings. But that doesn't involve PY/GL.

So I guess my point is, we shouldn't get too hung up about PY figures. If a change in handicaps is the reason for you to change your club, then either you're taking it all too seriously, or there is something else wrong with your club that made you leave.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Cirrus

Could you possibly explain your 'logic' GRFi .....  I have NO commercial interest
whatsoever (Keep up with things for goodness sake ...)  I am just a regular punter just like you and have been for quite some time .....
Other than having a keen enthusiasm for dinghy racing, with all due respect, you are nothing like me, you have a history of being in business in this very market and using the GL series amongst others to promote your wares.
As to the GL system/series, other than the hard fact that it is managed by a completely commercial operation, of course I have no hard facts to present proof of whatever collusion/corruption of the PY system for personal/class gain there may or may not be, but I have been in the periphery of this and other marine businesses for the past 40 years, and have what can I say, a keen instinct for spotting smoke and mirrors.

Interesting to note the Hadron is now getting the 'treatment' somebody must be worried about the sales it's been making.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 11:11am
Our aim is to allow the top sailors in any class an equal chance of winning when conditions suit that class. 
Is your club trying to allow the top sailors an equal chance of winning when conditions suit? Or are the trying to give representative results for sailors across a series?

Data from the Winter Championship handicap events held at Draycote, Grafham, Northampton, Queen Mary, Rutland, Yorkshire Dales over several years, and Datchet and Oxford last season has been collected and analysed - over 5000 race results in total. This has been the primary data source used for making changes.

Data was taken from these events, how similar is your club racing to these events? If your club evens don't attract the same fleet density then those 5000 race results may not be so representative. 

The RYA have long said that the PY should be altered locally. The problem is, locally you don't ever have enough results for it not to become a personal handicapping exercise. Basically, you have to be prepared to stand up and single out a handful or less sailor who you don't think deserve the results they have been getting. Obviously very decisive.  

Unless you have a quantifiable reason (tide), or it's a development class which has undergone significant recent change then I'd stick with what you have.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Eisvogel

Originally posted by andymck

 We seem to be very reluctant to share the chocolates in sailing. In other club individual sports there is often a system to adjust individual performance, and an inclusivity for prizes.

Good point. It can be a bit disheartening if the same two or three sailors win all the trophies on Awards Night. And I'm sure they know they're good sailors already anyway. Obviously it should not go the other way, as the anti-PC brigade always whines (that everyone, even the last one, has to get a trophy), but making it harder for last year's winner to get to the top spot again can only be good for progress.

Fudging handicaps so the best racer doesn't win, whilst still awarding the prize as if it were for 'best racer' is bound to cause issues. 

If you want to open up the prizes then it might be less contentious to do it through other award; personal handicap series, best attending, most improved (biggest reduction in personal handicap?), outstanding performance, first family. Think about the characteristics you want to see at your club, identify them and reward them; but do it openly. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 11:34am
of course I have no hard facts to present proof of whatever collusion/corruption of the PY system for personal/class gain there may or may not be .....  (etc etc)

So there we have it direct from the horses mouth .... so it is all just supposition, speculation or whatever we now might call 'fake news' - Logic being if you repeat ****ocks often enough some naive mugs might just believe you.  The world today I suppose ...

Next we expect to hear that your own 'preferred' altenatives (and this is a constantly and regularly moving target of course ...) are nothing but shiny, pure, bright and new and just what 'we' all really need.  Yeah right of course  ......  think most understand now exactly where you are coming from .... LOL

We can expect to see you at which one of the SJ series this year ?!  No ?  Not at all ?  Thought not.    Better  leave you to your winter sailing then  .....'Keyboard' class has a very attractive handicap again I hear.


Edited by Cirrus - 31 Oct 17 at 11:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 11:54am
1) PY straight up RYA numbers, no local amendments- any whinging, forward them to the RYA and remind them PY only really works over the series as general indicator of performance.    Any change or deviation will cause trouble, and unlikely you'll be thanked for your efforts.  

2) Return results to RYA to ensure you're doing your bit to make next year's numbers as reliable and representative of the classes sailed at your club as possible.

3) encourage fleet racing for those who seek a higher level of competitive sailing
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