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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 10:12am
Stick to PY! If you switched to the Great Lakes system and I were a member I'd leave and find another club, the GL system may work for them, but it's political, designed to attract numbers, pro jocks and heavily influenced by some classes & the 'Industry' imv. The thing about PY, everybody hates it universally so there is nowhere for moaners to go other than howl at the PYAG moon.

Moving boat handicaps is bound to cause issues so don't adjust locally if you want a quiet life

Edited by iGRF - 30 Oct 17 at 10:13am
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Gordon 1430 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gordon 1430 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 10:51am
Ignore Grf the PY system is safest
Most of us accept it has a few glitches but it has improved greatly with the more recent adjustments.
I sail a Phantom so have more reason t grip than most but I know we were having it to easy before.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 10:54am
I would stick to PY too. Interestingly at our club they do from time to time make adjustments to certain classes but they use a formula that is totally open for all to inspect and discuss. Whilst it ticks some people off it is hard to argue with the level of transparency - the changes are made only to the classes that consistently do very well or very badly. So when I sailed a RS400 for which a small lake resulted in poor performance against PY they changed the PY to make it more competitive. The issue with this approach of course is when you have a small number of boats in any one class because the individuals may be total rock stars or numpties - so its the sailor not the boat!!

One way the club has dealt with this is to run a few minor series on a personal handicap basis to make it harder for last years best sailors to win - gives mid fleet people a chance every so often to do better and encourage them and also gives the best sailors a challenge that they seem to enjoy.

The point is that PY is the best starting point. If you do need to vary it then be transparent on how and why you are doing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 10:56am
Firstly I'd take a few sample races or even series and re-score them with GL numbers.
You may find it makes surprisingly little difference?
Quite likely you can also influence series outcomes by changing the number of discards etc.

I think it may be better to think about grouping boats in PY classes?
Quibbling about the relative PY of similar boats is one thing, the issues of racing against boats who are a leg ahead or behind you are another.
Then maybe consider if the courses being set are influencing outcomes?

Although more and more people question the validity of PY numbers, fiddlling with them at club level is unlikely to go well.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 11:44am
Originally posted by 423zero

Only PY issue at my club is from Topaz virtually unbeatable.

Put a good sailor in a boat mostly sailed by beginners and you have a bandit....
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Supernova 395 "dolly the sheep"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 11:54am
Originally posted by iGRF

Stick to PY! If you switched to the Great Lakes system and I were a member I'd leave and find another club, the GL system may work for them, but it's political, designed to attract numbers, pro jocks and heavily influenced by some classes & the 'Industry' imv. The thing about PY, everybody hates it universally so there is nowhere for moaners to go other than howl at the PYAG moon.

Moving boat handicaps is bound to cause issues so don't adjust locally if you want a quiet life


Originally posted by Gordon 1430

Ignore Grf the PY system is safest
Most of us accept it has a few glitches but it has improved greatly with the more recent adjustments.
I sail a Phantom so have more reason t grip than most but I know we were having it to easy before.



Do you lot ever actually read posts?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 12:07pm
There's nothing to stop you using another set of numbers alongside the PY numbers, 2 sets of results. I'd use the PY numbers for dishing out the trophies though.

See how it works out, do it for a couple of years and then gauge membership opinion with a formal vote. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 12:39pm
If you have a clear case for adjusting a PY and data to back it up then adjust. If you have low confidence then probably best to leave as is.

At my local club people always whinge about the D-Zero winning everything (it doesn't) and how a big step forward has been taken (it hasn't). 

My usual response is 'Well what about Solo that has had a lot of rig development and optimised hull? The Laser with the Mk 2 sail (definitely quicker especially in marginal conditions) the Supernova that has shed some 15-20kg of hull weight...usually shuts people up because those boats rarely win anything.... (aside from the Solo but the guy in that is front end of the fleet nationally).

The only clear cut instance where we did adjust was with the Phantom back when it was on 1047 and the new epoxy hulls came out with carbon masts and laminate sails. We had guys who were nowhere in their respective fleets suddenly cleaning up and being unbeatable (and that change was driven bu the Phantom fleet itself within the club).

So yes look at adjusting but only if the PY is clearly wrong.
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 12:39pm
I have raced N12's, Merlin's, Salcombe Yawls, Lasers, I14's and Solos over the years in handicap and pursuit races under PY at all sorts of venues and never felt agrieved by the PY system, I have always ended up roughly where I expected to be.  

My only concern is that the current 4 digit system implies an unrealistic degree of accuracy in the PY numbers given the quality of the data, which i.m.o. is why people complain.
Somewhere between lies and truth lies the truth
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 12:41pm
why not dual score under all systems, post all the results to keep 100% transparency to the fleets and at the end of the year have a round table with all competitors to discuss your opinions on what you see in the various results and what would benefit you most.  

You could also re-score last the last few seasons so you could implement for next. 

 I would then adopt the system that reduces the differential between 1st and last positions as this is the most "competitive" outcome.
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