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Rule 28 - Sailing the Course RC Protests

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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 9:51am
We put the clause into our SI's because it would could become necessary to score retiring boats with finishing places unless they remember to inform the RC that they have retired.  This is because we cannot see the entire course from the race box, but they have to pass through the line to get back to the beach.  However I think that it is a pragmatic ammendment and I cannot really see why the RRS could not set this as the default position.

I think that the RRS provide a route to deal with missing marks or wrong direction roundings, though a bit clunky.  With regard to hitting marks, perhaps refer to Elvstrom "You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

Out of interest, am I correct in thinking that a competitor who breaches Rule 41 can only be disqualified by protest?  I am thinking particularly where a boat receives assistance from a rescue boat and carries on to finish.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 9:55am
Originally posted by sargesail

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by sargesail

should a boat be able to rely on the RC to take action


A boat cannot *rely* on the RC to take action because the RC is not required to do so.

I guess that's where I'm going with this....

Originally posted by sargesail

It seems to me that this is the one area where self-policing is really not going to work, because the boat sailing the wrong course may be so far ahead, or behind, that it is not possible for another boat to see it.  This is especially so in handicap racing.

We seem to have a situation where in some clubs it is accepted practice for the RC to police Rule 28 without recourse to the procedures in RRS....ie not through the protest procedure.

Yet on the other hand there is no obligation on the RC to take action even when it is aware of an infringement of Rule 28.

I knew what the RRS said when I asked the question.  As I said it feels to me as if this is one area where self-policing doesn't answer the mail.

From a 'bare rules' point of view there's no getting around Case 39

Sportsmanship and the Rules
Rule 60.2(a), Right to Protest; Right to Request Redress or Rule 69 Action
A race committee is not required to protest a boat. The primary responsibility for enforcing the rules lies with the competitors.
It's fair to observe that the rules are basically designed to cope with one design racing, or at least racing between boats of similar sizes and speeds.  Even in a handicap fleet with a wide spread of handicaps one would normally expect there to be a few boats around the tail-end who could protest a boat for missing a mark.

If an OA was running races where there was such a spread that competitors might not be expected to observe a rule 28 error, then I would be quite happy to see the SI notifying competitors that the race committee would observe compliance with rule 28 and protest apparent breaches where observed.

Its it perhaps because of this that RCs incorrectly take the DNF approach to Rule 28 infringements?

No, I think it's just because they don't know the rules and relevant cases.

As discussed, a race committee is absolutely forbidden to score a boat DNF for breaking rule 28, and IMHO should not be given a power in SI to DSQ a boat.  Sargesail and Rupert have provided several examples of race committees getting rule 28 issues wrong:   race committees should not be given arbitrary powers to penalise boats outside of the restricted situations stated in A5.  That's not what ROs are qualified for.





Edited by Brass - 24 Oct 17 at 9:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:12am
Originally posted by sargesail

Originally posted by Rupert

As a sailor, letting a fellow competitor know (usually with a small delay, depending upon whether the competitor should have known better) that they have rounded a mark the wrong way, or are heading in the wrong direction, is common place. To me, it shows good sportsmanship. After all, I'm out there to have a good race.
However, is that ever the place of a safety boat crew? The only times I've done it are either for beginners, or where the RO has changed things last minute and I'm making sure the whole fleet knows, if communication has been poor.

I'm glad you raise this.  There's an interesting logic.  

I hope we would agree that if Boat A, observing Boat B infringe Rule 28, needs to hail protest at the time.  (Let's not get into the whole debate about levels of aggression associated with the 'P' word).  This then gives the other boat an opportunity to rectify the error.

I also hope we would agree that if it could be proved (so I think we're in theoretical space - unless Boat A admitted it) that Boat A made no attempt to inform Boat B, then there would be a problem with the validity of the Protest.

Now take the first situation, delete Boat A and insert 'Patrol Boat'.  There was a generally held view in the Rules Observance topic that we need to be careful about elements of the RC interfering.  But that seems an odd logic in this context since it removes the opportunity for Boat B to correct its error.

It also seems a little strange that there isn't a requirement on the RC to inform.....

No, a protesting boat is NOT required to hail 'protest' and display a red flag at the time a protestee makes a 'rule 28 error'.  Rule 28 is not broken until the boat finishes.

Definitions, Finish
Rule 28.2, Sailing the Course
Rule 61.1(a)(3), Protest Requirements: Informing the Protestee

A boat that makes, and does not correct, an error in sailing the course does not break rule 28 until she finishes. If a boat makes such an error, a second boat may notify the first that she intends to protest before the first boat finishes, or at the first reasonable opportunity after the first boat finishes.

The hail and flag rule has been specifically amended to cope with this:  rule 61.1( a )(3) provides

(3) if the incident was an error by the other boat in sailing the course, she need not hail or display a red flag but she shall inform the other boat either before or at the first reasonable opportunity after the other boat finishes;

If a race committee is regularly going to get into the business of on-water protesting, I wouldn't mind the race committee using a red flag and hailing 'protest', telling competitors what's going on in the SI, of course.

Edited by Brass - 24 Oct 17 at 10:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:13am
I can remember being shouted at at Whitefiars, " You are wrong side of start line " probably classed as an assist.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:21am
Originally posted by 423zero

I can remember being shouted at at Whitefiars, " You are wrong side of start line " probably classed as an assist.

As long as it's unsolicited information from a disinterested source, its OK.  And a race committee or a boat in the same race is a disinterested source.

Rule 41.1  OUTSIDE HELP
A boat shall not receive help from any outside source, except
...
(d) unsolicited information from a disinterested source, which may be another boat in the same race.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:31am
Originally posted by Rupert

How often does a boat gain by sailing the wrong course? Usually it seems that one merrily sails off to the wrong mark, only to have to come back when someone joyfully informs you of that. Never have I thought of it as a "protest" situation.
Can easily happen where the SI provide 'short' and 'long' courses or legs, and a boat rounds the short mark instead of the long one:  this typically puts that boat well in front of the fleet, who cannot catch her to hail 'protest':  this is a good reason for the new rule 61.1( a )(3).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:59am
Originally posted by sargesail

... we seem to have a view that the RC canít tell but can protest

Rule 61.1( b )
(b) If the race committee, technical committee or protest committee intends to protest a boat concerning an incident the committee observed in the racing area, it shall inform her after the race within the time limit of rule 61.3. In other cases the committee shall inform the boat of its intention to protest as soon as reasonably possible.

This does not prevent the race committee informing a boat of the intention to protest at some sooner time.

Rule 41.1  OUTSIDE HELP
A boat shall not receive help from any outside source, except
...
(d) unsolicited information from a disinterested source, which may be another boat in the same race.

This would allow the race committee to tell a boat that she has missed a mark or is sailing the wrong course.
Originally posted by 423zero

Can't see how RC can tell wrong way boat anything other than they are sailing wrong course ?

Originally posted by Rupert

But what if they tell one boat, but not another? Hardly fair.
That's the problem isn't it?

Rule 61.1( b ) has the effect of allowing competitors to gain a substantial advantage from another's failure to sail the course correctly.

It's probably not a good thing for the race committee to take that advantage away by informing the protestee any sooner than her competitors need to.

Maybe, just maybe, if the boat making the rule 28 error is a back of the fleet duffer a little help from the race committee might save him or her from having a miserable day without hurting other competitors too much, but the race committee would want to be pretty sure that they're not going to get any requests for redress.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 11:22am
Originally posted by davidyacht

We now have the following SI

Boats observed by the Race Committee to have not sailed the correct course will be scored DSQ without the need to protest. Boats may seek redress from this action. This amends RRS 63.1 & Appendix A

Hopefully Brass will not pull this apart 

Originally posted by davidyacht

We put the clause into our SI's because it would could become necessary to score retiring boats with finishing places unless they remember to inform the RC that they have retired.  This is because we cannot see the entire course from the race box, but they have to pass through the line to get back to the beach.  However I think that it is a pragmatic amendment and I cannot really see why the RRS could not set this as the default position.

Drafting looks pretty OK to me.

But the question remains:  why does the race committee want to interfere in the game being played by the racers?.

And if the race officer can't see the whole course, how can consistent enforcement possibly be achieved.

As I've previously indicated, I think that giving race committees power to disqualify or penalise competitors in other than the specifically limited circumstances of rule A5.

Even qualified Race Officers rarely have the training and experience in boat positioning and observation of Umpires, or the knowledge and experience in applying the rules of Judges.  Race Officers have a multiplicity of tasks other than observing competitors for rules breaches.  The same goes in spades for patrol boat crews.  Race Committees are just not equipped to reach conclusions about breaches of the rules in general.

There's a further difficulty.

Over in the other thread OhFFSake posted an example of a competitor, rostered as race officer who disqualified half the fleet, then went on to win the series.

This is an embarrassing and obvious conflict of interest.

If you roster competitors to perform duties on behalf of the race committee, and you invest the race committee with arbitrary power to penalise competitors, this conflict of interest is going to produce big problems.

IF the club/sailing/race committee identifies problems with rules observance and decides that race committee intervention is useful, then I suggest the race committee intervention should be limited to protesting, then your properly constituted protest committee or appointed arbitrator can deal with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 11:30am
Originally posted by davidyacht

We put the clause into our SI's because it would could become necessary to score retiring boats with finishing places unless they remember to inform the RC that they have retired.


That feels like a rather harsh approach. If I understand you correctly you are saying that due to your finish line configuration boats that have already retired will "finish" on their way back to the beach, so you need to score boats that have elected not to complete the course as DSQ. If I came to your club I'd be bloody furious at being scored DSQ rather than RET, even if the points implication was the same.

If I were sailing at your club I'd be happier with an SI that said something like boats that are observed to retire before completing the course may be scored RET - or maybe even a new code - without the boat needing to inform the RC they have retired. A mistake is then a scoring error which may be corrected without a hearing (90.3c) if the RC is content that it made an error. If not then a hearing would be appropriate. That would mean that you still need a hearing for a boat that appears to have completed the race but sailed the course incorrectly.



Edited by JimC - 24 Oct 17 at 11:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 11:33am
Originally posted by davidyacht

I think that the RRS provide a route to deal with missing marks or wrong direction roundings, though a bit clunky. 

Rule 34 MARK MISSING
If a mark is missing or out of position, the race committee shall, if possible,
(a) replace it in its correct position or substitute a new one of similar appearance, or
(b) substitute an object displaying flag M and make repetitive sound signals.

If a race committee doesn't replace or substitute a missing mark, and doesn't itself abandon the race, then they've required competitors to sail a course which doesn't exist, which is probably an improper action justifying redress, which is may be to abandon the race.

Originally posted by davidyacht

  With regard to hitting marks, perhaps refer to Elvstrom "You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."
Would you be kind enough to cite the document in which this was published?
Originally posted by davidyacht

Out of interest, am I correct in thinking that a competitor who breaches Rule 41 can only be disqualified by protest?  I am thinking particularly where a boat receives assistance from a rescue boat and carries on to finish.
Many race committees amend rule 41 in the SI to include help in the event of capsize or damage from a race committee vessel as an exception, as long as no significant advantage is gained.

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