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Rule 28 - Sailing the Course RC Protests

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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by Noah

Does the RC have the authority to score a boat as DNF without a protest hearing, unless the boat didn't cross the finish line (within the time limit)?

We had this issue a few years ago; we now have the following SI

Boats observed by the Race Committee to have not sailed the correct course will be scored DSQ without the need to protest. Boats may seek redress from this action. This amends RRS 63.1 & Appendix A

Hopefully Brass will not pull this apart 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by Rupert

As a sailor, letting a fellow competitor know (usually with a small delay, depending upon whether the competitor should have known better) that they have rounded a mark the wrong way, or are heading in the wrong direction, is common place. To me, it shows good sportsmanship. After all, I'm out there to have a good race.
However, is that ever the place of a safety boat crew? The only times I've done it are either for beginners, or where the RO has changed things last minute and I'm making sure the whole fleet knows, if communication has been poor.

I'm glad you raise this.  There's an interesting logic.  

I hope we would agree that if Boat A, observing Boat B infringe Rule 28, needs to hail protest at the time.  (Let's not get into the whole debate about levels of aggression associated with the 'P' word).  This then gives the other boat an opportunity to rectify the error.

I also hope we would agree that if it could be proved (so I think we're in theoretical space - unless Boat A admitted it) that Boat A made no attempt to inform Boat B, then there would be a problem with the validity of the Protest.

Now take the first situation, delete Boat A and insert 'Patrol Boat'.  There was a generally held view in the Rules Observance topic that we need to be careful about elements of the RC interfering.  But that seems an odd logic in this context since it removes the opportunity for Boat B to correct its error.

It also seems a little strange that there isn't a requirement on the RC to inform.....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Seems like a good area for arbitration and a retirement by the wrong course boat if they realise, when shown, where they went wrong. Otherwise, it would need to go to a full protest.

I have to admit that a part of me feels that if a boat hasn't sailed the same course as everyone else, they haven't actually completed the race, so marking them as not finished makes sense. This approach simply doesn't allow for human error or accountability, though, whereas a more official approach does.

One of our more common errors is the race officer putting a board in the wrong way round on the race hut. Some will round the way they were expecting from the course map, others the way it is on the start hut (which is what the SIs say), even though it may involve sailing 270 degrees. Abandoning races is unpopular, so often the first lap gaffs are ignored and by second lap the fleet will usually have reached agreement on what to do. Can't remember this ever coming to a protest. Usually, it is noticed before the start and the red faced RO will flip it over just in time, with apologies.
The above makes it sound like it happens every week... It doesn't, really!

Ah yes I remember that problem as I grew up racing at your club....I'm pretty sure I can even remember a protest/request for redress about it....but 25 years later its probably faded from corporate memory.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 6:24pm
How often does a boat gain by sailing the wrong course? Usually it seems that one merrily sails off to the wrong mark, only to have to come back when someone joyfully informs you of that. Never have I thought of it as a "protest" situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 8:03pm
Telling somebody they are sailing for the wrong mark is usually a mark of sportsmanship (tempered with a little smugness). 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 10:00pm
Not disagreeing with that. But to self police it if Boat B do the right thing then you have to have a valid protest. Which means you have to tell. Yet we seem to have a view that the RC canít tell but can protest

Edited by sargesail - 23 Oct 17 at 10:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 10:29pm
Can't see how RC can tell wrong way boat anything other than they are sailing wrong course ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 8:06am
But what if they tell one boat, but not another? Hardly fair.

Pretty sure I've given in to the temptation of shouting "you are going the wrong way" several times when standing in the race box, thinking back. I think I need to learn to keep my mouth shut, though. I've given people a race course, I need to let them use it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 8:43am
But that's exactly what I'm getting at.  To be able to take action against Boat B who is sailing the wrong course Boat A would need to have told Boat B with a minimum (but not necessarily 'sportsmanlike' hail of protest.

Yet the RC can take action without warning a boat...in fact there seems to be a view that it shouldn't/mustn't....because that might not be fair to all.

I'm not sure that the latter is a logical position.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 8:57am
Originally posted by Noah

Does the RC have the authority to score a boat as DNF without a protest hearing, unless the boat didn't cross the finish line (within the time limit)?

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I don't think so, they should protest the 'offending' boat I believe.

Correct.

Definition, Finish
Rule 28.2, Sailing the Course
Rule 31, Touching a Mark
Rule A5, Scores Determined by the Race Committee
If a boat makes an error under rule 28.2 or breaks rule 31 at the finishing line and finishes without correcting her error or taking a penalty, she must be scored points for the place in which she finished. She can only be penalized for breaking rule 28.2 or rule 31 if she is protested and the protest committee decides that she broke the rule.
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