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Rule 28 - Sailing the Course RC Protests |
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davidyacht
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
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Topic: Rule 28 - Sailing the Course RC Protests Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 9:51am |
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We put the clause into our SI's because it would could become necessary to score retiring boats with finishing places unless they remember to inform the RC that they have retired. This is because we cannot see the entire course from the race box, but they have to pass through the line to get back to the beach. However I think that it is a pragmatic ammendment and I cannot really see why the RRS could not set this as the default position.
I think that the RRS provide a route to deal with missing marks or wrong direction roundings, though a bit clunky. With regard to hitting marks, perhaps refer to Elvstrom "You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors." Out of interest, am I correct in thinking that a competitor who breaches Rule 41 can only be disqualified by protest? I am thinking particularly where a boat receives assistance from a rescue boat and carries on to finish. |
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Happily living in the past
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 9:55am | |||
Edited by Brass - 24 Oct 17 at 9:57am |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:12am | |||
No, a protesting boat is NOT required to hail 'protest' and display a red flag at the time a protestee makes a 'rule 28 error'. Rule 28 is not broken until the boat finishes. Rule Rule: 28.2" data-url="/rules/649?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(51, 122, 183);">28.2, Sailing the Course Rule Rule: 61.1" data-url="/rules/512?xformat=fleet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(51, 122, 183);">61.1(a)(3), Protest Requirements: Informing the Protestee A boat that makes, and does not correct, an error in sailing the course does not break rule 28 until she finishes. If a boat makes such an error, a second boat may notify the first that she intends to protest before the first boat finishes, or at the first reasonable opportunity after the first boat finishes. The hail and flag rule has been specifically amended to cope with this: rule 61.1( a )(3) provides If a race committee is regularly going to get into the business of on-water protesting, I wouldn't mind the race committee using a red flag and hailing 'protest', telling competitors what's going on in the SI, of course. Edited by Brass - 24 Oct 17 at 10:22am |
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423zero
Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3406 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:13am | |||
I can remember being shouted at at Whitefiars, " You are wrong side of start line " probably classed as an assist.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:21am | |||
As long as it's unsolicited information from a disinterested source, its OK. And a race committee or a boat in the same race is a disinterested source.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:31am | |||
Can easily happen where the SI provide 'short' and 'long' courses or legs, and a boat rounds the short mark instead of the long one: this typically puts that boat well in front of the fleet, who cannot catch her to hail 'protest': this is a good reason for the new rule 61.1( a )(3).
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:59am | |||
This does not prevent the race committee informing a boat of the intention to protest at some sooner time.
This would allow the race committee to tell a boat that she has missed a mark or is sailing the wrong course.
That's the problem isn't it? Rule 61.1( b ) has the effect of allowing competitors to gain a substantial advantage from another's failure to sail the course correctly. It's probably not a good thing for the race committee to take that advantage away by informing the protestee any sooner than her competitors need to. Maybe, just maybe, if the boat making the rule 28 error is a back of the fleet duffer a little help from the race committee might save him or her from having a miserable day without hurting other competitors too much, but the race committee would want to be pretty sure that they're not going to get any requests for redress.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 11:22am | |||
Drafting looks pretty OK to me. But the question remains: why does the race committee want to interfere in the game being played by the racers?. And if the race officer can't see the whole course, how can consistent enforcement possibly be achieved. As I've previously indicated, I think that giving race committees power to disqualify or penalise competitors in other than the specifically limited circumstances of rule A5. Even qualified Race Officers rarely have the training and experience in boat positioning and observation of Umpires, or the knowledge and experience in applying the rules of Judges. Race Officers have a multiplicity of tasks other than observing competitors for rules breaches. The same goes in spades for patrol boat crews. Race Committees are just not equipped to reach conclusions about breaches of the rules in general. There's a further difficulty. Over in the other thread OhFFSake posted an example of a competitor, rostered as race officer who disqualified half the fleet, then went on to win the series. This is an embarrassing and obvious conflict of interest. If you roster competitors to perform duties on behalf of the race committee, and you invest the race committee with arbitrary power to penalise competitors, this conflict of interest is going to produce big problems. IF the club/sailing/race committee identifies problems with rules observance and decides that race committee intervention is useful, then I suggest the race committee intervention should be limited to protesting, then your properly constituted protest committee or appointed arbitrator can deal with it.
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 11:30am | |||
That feels like a rather harsh approach. If I understand you correctly you are saying that due to your finish line configuration boats that have already retired will "finish" on their way back to the beach, so you need to score boats that have elected not to complete the course as DSQ. If I came to your club I'd be bloody furious at being scored DSQ rather than RET, even if the points implication was the same. If I were sailing at your club I'd be happier with an SI that said something like boats that are observed to retire before completing the course may be scored RET - or maybe even a new code - without the boat needing to inform the RC they have retired. A mistake is then a scoring error which may be corrected without a hearing (90.3c) if the RC is content that it made an error. If not then a hearing would be appropriate. That would mean that you still need a hearing for a boat that appears to have completed the race but sailed the course incorrectly. Edited by JimC - 24 Oct 17 at 11:36am |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 11:33am | |||
If a race committee doesn't replace or substitute a missing mark, and doesn't itself abandon the race, then they've required competitors to sail a course which doesn't exist, which is probably an improper action justifying redress, which is may be to abandon the race.
Would you be kind enough to cite the document in which this was published?
Many race committees amend rule 41 in the SI to include help in the event of capsize or damage from a race committee vessel as an exception, as long as no significant advantage is gained. |
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