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Endeavour 2017: Prediction thread

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Poll Question: Who will win the 2017 endeavour
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
8 [33.33%]
6 [25.00%]
1 [4.17%]
1 [4.17%]
1 [4.17%]
1 [4.17%]
3 [12.50%]
1 [4.17%]
1 [4.17%]
1 [4.17%]
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 9:37am
Don't need to repeat my opinion of GL numbers and their effect on the Laser, but as for getting 'top' sailors and we've strayed way off the topic reservation talking at cross purposes, but that series idea wasn't necessarily intended for top sailors or to replace the Endeavour which other than it's current choice of boat I always thought was a fair venue and test of good sailors.

My experience of starting new series has been that top sailors will emerge from it, and if you PR the series appropriately they soon become 'household' names in their own right, not that creating new names rather than a new method of handicapping was the goal.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 10:26am
My experience of starting new series has been that top sailors will emerge from it, and if you PR the series appropriately they soon become 'household' names in their own right, not that creating new names rather than a new method of handicapping was the goal.

Well if it is so obvious why not do it  ! ..... or is it something 'they' should always do.    This all feels more than a bit like strident 'taxi driver' philosophy - railing at the world and what 'they' should be doing while avoiding any real personal involvement.   "After all it is blindingly obvious" ....  "and another thing.... "  (etc etc) Wink

Good luck !
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 10:56am
Originally posted by Cirrus

Well if it is so obvious why not do it† ! ....



I can't see a 'profit' in it for the moment and as I said things have taken a dramatic upward turn with my 'proper' business, but often talking about this stuff gives others ideas and maybe 'they' might also see the opportunity this current anarchic nightmare presents for an opportunist with a bit of nouse and some financial backing it is after all a forum for ideas as such.

There are lots of very clever people I've come to notice amongst you lot and lots of them want more for the sport than we currently enjoy, the fact you are so enamoured about one attempt to offer a 'premier league' just proves the point that other than the Olympics, there is no aspirational and achievable challenge for youngsters that could also be marketed as a shop window for the whole sport.

It's all very well pointing at the AC or the five ring circus but routes to those are closed to most amateur folk with jobs, and Solo or OK <insert appropriate class> champion? really that's about as aspirational as sticking needles in your eye in the real world.

If there were a half decent national 'Formula 1' series with a prize fund, a sponsor seeking to PR the hell out of it along with its brand name, an arena for manufacturers to showcase their boats, a system that works for them, not a bunch of buffers in a smoke filled room, I'm sure we'd all welcome it, it needn't be at the expense of what already exists indeed it needs to be very different for precisely that reason, but right now I'm not in a position to instigate it and even if I were, what are my credentials for the task? Keyboard warrior? Hardly....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 11:56am
So nothing at all like or derived from that enduring and and widely successful 1980's Board racing model then ?   You know the one we all still look up to today ........ Pinch

 


Edited by Cirrus - 25 Oct 17 at 11:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Oli

the Scots do a champs of champs handicap race & results 
Not sure how people get an entry, but certainly some of them aren't at the top of their class. 

I'm surprised at the time gaps in races too. An artefact of handicaps, really tough conditions, or just a poor quality fleet? 

The winner of this event came 27th at The Endeavour. and 5th out of 14 at their nationals this year, but first Brit. 


I assume that the entry is for the top Scottish position at a nationals, so not necessarily the winner. The 18 guys are very good sailors, if i remeber correctly they've won the 18's overall in the past and some of the fleet are very good indeed, i know ive sailed in them  Wink.  Guess all of the above affects results which is tempered by multiple races, like any series, od or py.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 12:57pm
How about an series where you bring your boat and race day one py a la BOTC/scottish champs, then sail endeavour style in supplied boats the next.  Have multiple events over the winter/follwoing year at various venues of river/sea/GL/puddle etc - perhaps the events could be held at the various champs clubs with the supplied boat being that champs class.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 1:07pm
Entry for the RYA Scotland Champion of Champions event is generally for the winner of a class's Scottish travellers series or Scottish Championship but they do have entry for the top Scot at a UK nationals for classes without a big Scottish presence and itís incorporated the Scottish Ladies Championship for a few years now. The event itself has been on the go for something like 30 years and they have always tried to even things out for classes as best they can using average lap racing (originally developed for the event by Mike Harrison in the early 90s if memory serves me correct) and use several different course formats to try and avoid bias to one type of boat. Itís a good fun event and itís not often you get Oppies racing with Moths etc but I don't think you'll find many who think it's an alternative to the Endeavour Ė perhaps more like the recent Southampton Boat show battle of the classes
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Oli

the Scots do a champs of champs handicap race & results 
Not sure how people get an entry, but certainly some of them aren't at the top of their class. 

I'm surprised at the time gaps in races too. An artefact of handicaps, really tough conditions, or just a poor quality fleet? 

The winner of this event came 27th at The Endeavour. and 5th out of 14 at their nationals this year, but first Brit. 


I assume that the entry is for the top Scottish position at a nationals, so not necessarily the winner. The 18 guys are very good sailors, if i remeber correctly they've won the 18's overall in the past and some of the fleet are very good indeed, i know ive sailed in them  Wink.  Guess all of the above affects results which is tempered by multiple races, like any series, od or py.

I'm sure they're decent; but whichever way you cut it they came 5th, (tied on points with 3rd) when only 8 boats completed the series. The results would seem to suggest there are at least four better sailors from one yacht club in Ireland than the rest Scotland. I'm sure there are many Scott's who would have a thing or two to say about that. 

Also there is the time gaps in the actual Champion of Champions event. Often 3-4 minutes to third place in a race, and the fleet spread over 10 minutes. Something is either hugely wrong with the handicaps, or the event isn't attracting top sailors. 

Either way, I don't see those results as pointing to it being a format which is either fairer, or attracts top sailors. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Oli

the Scots do a champs of champs handicap race & results 
Not sure how people get an entry, but certainly some of them aren't at the top of their class. 

I'm surprised at the time gaps in races too. An artefact of handicaps, really tough conditions, or just a poor quality fleet? 

The winner of this event came 27th at The Endeavour. and 5th out of 14 at their nationals this year, but first Brit. 


I assume that the entry is for the top Scottish position at a nationals, so not necessarily the winner. The 18 guys are very good sailors, if i remeber correctly they've won the 18's overall in the past and some of the fleet are very good indeed, i know ive sailed in them  Wink.  Guess all of the above affects results which is tempered by multiple races, like any series, od or py.

I'm sure they're decent; but whichever way you cut it they came 5th, (tied on points with 3rd) when only 8 boats completed the series. The results would seem to suggest there are at least four better sailors from one yacht club in Ireland than the rest Scotland. I'm sure there are many Scott's who would have a thing or two to say about that. 

Also there is the time gaps in the actual Champion of Champions event. Often 3-4 minutes to third place in a race, and the fleet spread over 10 minutes. Something is either hugely wrong with the handicaps, or the event isn't attracting top sailors. 

Either way, I don't see those results as pointing to it being a format which is either fairer, or attracts top sailors. 

which is still the top scottish boat required for entry so youre point out symantics to which a smaller fleet means it no less competitive and certainly doesn't mean the sailors aren't as good as a big fleets, which it seems to me your'e suggesting. 

Certainly when i crewed a k6 and was in shot of the nationals against a previous laser worlds winner in a fleet of a dozen or so very competitive sailors including a past euro fireball champion i'd say fleet size has a smaller bearing on quality than your'e inferring. 

The new 18's are much closer to OD than a lot of the larger OD fleets like fireballs/505 which are also very competitive but with large gaps between those competitive bands of pa few minutes, much larger than 10 minutes over a race too as are most OD fleets even small ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 3:32pm
I'm certainly not doubting that they qualified fair and square, I'm just saying the bar wasn't set very high. Top Scottish boat isn't that hard when the one other Scottish boat only finishes three out of eight races. I don't think that's a very controversial thing to say. 

And I agree, fleet size isn't everything. You get some hugely competitive small fleets, and when sailors from that fleet go to compete in other classes they show their class there. For all I know the guy might have won lots of other dinghy classes; if you know post up the results. 

When I'm talking about time gaps in races, I'm talking about the actual Champion of Champions Event, here. Not the National 18 champs. There is a large gap in times for these races, which to me suggests the standard wasn't that high. 
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