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Your Club starts an Adopted Classes Only Policy

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2547 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 2:41pm
Do we think people deliberately sail odd classes so as to mask their own performance shortcomings .... blame the results on the wrong conditions for the PY?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by 2547

Do we think people deliberately sail odd classes so as to mask their own performance shortcomings .... blame the results on the wrong conditions for the PY?



No. People sail boats they enjoy sailing. On Sunday we had 5 solos, 3 Flying Fifteens, 2 Europes, 2 Vareos, 1 Albacore and 1 Hadron H2 in our handicap racing. Each race was around an hour long with the boats coming over the line between 53 minutes and 62 minutes. It was close racing with multiple boats at each mark and plenty of changes in who was leading. Brilliant, tactical, fun and I am dying for the weekend to come around again.

When I first got my Hadron there were those who were excited to see a guy with something different that he loved sailing and there were those that said silly things about how I should have bought a Solo or Vareo. Who cares what I sail - I love it, it suits me and the way I sail. Closing down a club to a few classes that the cliques like to sail would kill the sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:04pm
so in effect a two tier system, those that can / do conform and those who don't / can't?!

why not have all in racing, banded in a sensible ranges, and have one design results pulled from within in those groups until critical mass for them to have their own start.

if they have the right boat and ethos the fleet will build from within the ranks, those that lie outside of it wont be made to feel like they don't belong, however unintentional your action maybe.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Oli

...why not have all in racing, banded in a sensible ranges, and have one design results pulled from within in those groups until critical mass for them to have their own start.


That's what most clubs do isn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by 2547

Do we think people deliberately sail odd classes so as to mask their own performance shortcomings

No, I think people sail what they think will be fun.

It does seem to me though that if a club fleet gets in a very rigid heirarchy, -
Fred almost always wins, Jane is usually second, Peter third, that sort of thing then it is quite likely people will drift away.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Oli

...why not have all in racing, banded in a sensible ranges, and have one design results pulled from within in those groups until critical mass for them to have their own start.


That's what most clubs do isn't it?

and i thought i was being subtle  Wink

seriously though do "most" clubs actually do that?  or do they tether potential one design fleets within the handicap fleet?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by mozzy

...new fleets to build until they reach a critical mass

There doesn't seem to be a critical mass...

My observation is that its every bit as hard if not harder to maintain class racing in a club as it is to introduce it.
I really meant critical mass as in worth while having their own start etc. It was a poor use of English, sorry.

When a race is worth running is debatable, but I often think if there are more people running the race than taking part in it, then it's not sustainable. I also think if the waiting time for other is greater than the racing time for competitors then it's not sustainable (extra start for two boat in an hour race enables 2x60 minutes of racing= 120 minutes. However, if 30 people in other fleets have to wait 5 minutes whilst the extra start is put in to the sequence = 30x5 = 150 minutes).

^That's my rule of thumb as to whether racing was worthwhile, based volunteer run club racing. I have zero evidence to back it up. 

However, I do think there is a certain degree of self sustaining 'critical mass' to fleets. If there wasn't we wouldn't see any class racing at all. From my experience it is much easier to maintain a class than start one up, and the more people you have in a class the more likely you are to have another enthusiastic volunteer in your midst to keep it alive. However, I take you're point it's not critical mass in the true nuclear analogy as it is possible for a class to fail even once it has reached high numbers (possibly no class ever reaches true critical mass?). 





Edited by mozzy - 09 Oct 17 at 4:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by 2547

Do we think people deliberately sail odd classes so as to mask their own performance shortcomings .... blame the results on the wrong conditions for the PY?



Maybe some, but not very many. Far more often people just don't care so much about knowing exactly how good they are. They know they're middle to back of the fleet, are happy and accept that but just want to sail something more fun. 



Edited by mozzy - 09 Oct 17 at 4:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Oli

so in effect a two tier system, those that can / do conform and those who don't / can't?!

why not have all in racing, banded in a sensible ranges, and have one design results pulled from within in those groups until critical mass for them to have their own start.

if they have the right boat and ethos the fleet will build from within the ranks, those that lie outside of it wont be made to feel like they don't belong, however unintentional your action maybe.

Kind of, but as already suggested, you're getting back to the slow, medium fast handicap racing most clubs have. It soon becomes very messy. 

I wouldn't record results, and I wouldn't band them. I would start them last and I wouldn't even run a start unless there was and 10+ boats. 

A start is really the only thing you need to grow a fleet (you can agree a course on land, note down where you finished if you want results). If a boat is really something worthwhile it will grow from there. 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by H2

Who cares what I sail - I love it, it suits me and the way I sail. Closing down a club to a few classes that the cliques like to sail would kill the sport.
People do care, and it's not because they want to have cliques, it's because they want simple racing on a level playing field. 

If there are 5 solos and you join with a solo, you give another boat for 5 people to race against. You start with them and finish with them, and as it's class racing there's no need to worry about writing down finish times, or lap times. 

If there are 5 solo's and you join with a hadron, you add no direct competition for anyone. If you then expect handicap racing it makes being PRO much hard, duty teams need increasing, the fleets spread out more and there is more dead time. 

I think declaring it okay because the hadron is what you love to sail and calling out other who are negative as cliquish is a bit unfair. 

Now, I'm not saying we should exclude these people. But, what often happens is in the name of being inclusive we bend over backwards and no one recognises the impact it has on existing racing. It adds complexity to running races and means people have to wait around longer. The people in the solo fleet drift away from sailing, because the time they spend waiting around on the water or doing duties outweighs the time they actually spend racing. 




Edited by mozzy - 09 Oct 17 at 4:36pm
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