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Rules Observance |
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transient
Really should get out more Joined: 21 Aug 12 Online Status: Offline Posts: 715 |
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Topic: Rules Observance Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 5:38pm |
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Same thing happened to us a few years ago. The RO drew the course on the board and five minutes later he changed his mind and decided to reverse the course so without communication he altered the course board......of course half the racers saw the first diagram, half saw the second. It became clear at the five minute signal that something was amiss. The race started and there was chaos. If memory serves the RO abandoned the race and asked the safety boat to give instructions......I think most of us had a chuckle about it. Re RO's administering justice. Surely as RO's we are too far away to see anything but the most obvious infringements? I couldn't tell if someone has hit the mark unless I was sitting right on their transom and if you can't see everything (impossible) then best not set yourself up as judge and jury. It seem patronising and a whole kettle of fish, best treat them like adults. Edited by transient - 22 Oct 17 at 5:44pm |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 9:50pm | |||
Davidyacht, thanks for several thoughtful posts which haven't drawn much of a response.
Interesting thought. We usually think that big fleets are a good part of the game. Anyone else?
Seems like a pretty good way of looking at the role of the race officer.
Rule 42 is probably the hardest rule in the book. It's particularly hard for competitors to assemble enough evidence to win a protest, hence the use of on-water judging for rule 42 and Appendix P. Even then rule 42 judging is very difficult. Use of video might help. What is needed is for rule 42 to be completely re-engineered. I have no idea how this could be done. I dream of the day when a genius engineer comes along and produces a more satisfactory workable solution.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 10:02pm | |||
Well, I mentioned checking a couple of times, but what I think you have in mind is a process for competitor initiated review of scoring (without having to start off with a formal request for redress). Experienced race committees and judges have been using a Scoring Review Request process to address problems with apparent scoring mistakes for some time, although it is not well documented. Competitors may submit a Scoring Review Request form, showing details of the error which they think has been made, and sometimes containing short evidence statements from other competitors in support (such as surrounding competitors in an OCS issue, or finishing place issue). The Scoring Review Request is passed on to the Race Officer who reviews the race committee records such as original finishing sheets and start and finish voice recordings, and makes any corrections to final scores necessary as required by rule 90.3( c ). Review by RO works well. I've seen half a dozen redress requests about OCS resolved in twenty minutes by the race officer playing the voice record tapes to the competitors, who then happily withdrew their requests.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 10:09pm | |||
Just to add to the limitations on Race Committee protests.
The RYA Race Management Guide is even more definitive:
Although how a race committee could validly form a view about the knowingness of a competitor touching a mark defeats me <g>. |
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davidyacht
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 10:33pm | |||
Maybe we need Racing Rules of Sailing Lite which would allow all sorts of offences currently forbidden, which would see a major expansion of our sport. What sort of breaches of the current rules do you think should be allowed? Why do you think relaxing the rules would expand the sport? I was being ironic ... some posters have suggested that the rules are holding back the development of the sport, I don’t share that opinion Part 2 Is 5 pages of 190 pages of the RRS and probably represents 99% of what the average weekend warrior needs to know and understand in order to get around the racecourse without endangering other competitors. Perhaps this could be stripped out of the RRS and presented in a more visual manner (to be fair to the RYA I think they did this). I think the rules work pretty well, the problems occur not because they don’t work, but because as in all walks of life there are people who don’t bother to learn them, or people choose to ignore them, or people choose to write their own.
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Happily living in the past
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 11:17pm | |||
You would have thought that, as an expert in sarcasm, I would have noticed that.
The Part 2 rules, in particular are written in plain language. I don't think abbreviated versions of the rules themselves would be helpful. There are any number of charts and dot point lists available to assist people to learn and remember the Part 2 rules. I don't think that gutting Part 2 out of the RRS would particularly help: after all it's the second part: I don't think you would want people NOT to look at Part 1 Fundamental Rules.
Just so.
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zippyRN
Far too distracted from work Joined: 14 Sep 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 437 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 1:51am | |||
other than marks in clear view of the committee boat and if the rescue provision is working properly and effectively those in clear view of a rescue boat ? |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 2:38am | |||
Sense of sight can tell you nothing about the mental state (knowingness) of a competitor. Edited by Brass - 23 Oct 17 at 2:50am |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 8:38am | |||
There are occasions where a boat "may" have touched a mark, or "maybe" it was just their bow wave moving it? In these cases, I think a race committee would be unwise to intervene. But there are other cases where the boat simply runs the mark down, or rolls round it. If the boat doesn't do anything in those situations, and the only witness is the safety boat driver watching the gybe mark, should there be a protest? And if there is only one witness, and the sailor says that he didn't hit it, should the protest be upheld?
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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423zero
Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3406 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 10:34am | |||
I have seen nothing to convince me on the water policing is wrong, 19.2 & 9.6 clearly state what RC can protest about.
The ' Mr Godfrey ' approach isn't working. I stated in a earlier post how infringements were observed and dealt with, RC and two safety boats with two crew and racers themselves, this combined effort appears to work, racers protest infringements RC also protest infrigements, RC then adjudicate. |
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