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sargesail
Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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Topic: Rules Observance Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 4:53pm |
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Ah must be your original use of 'turns,' implying boat on boat rather than mark touch which confused me:
'When I am OOD if I see something I send boat over if they don't do their turns or they miss a mark' For me thought that's really as bad. The whole judgement on mark hitting thing, and the complications of being compelled to do so by a keep clear boat's actions....mean that I think this is just wrong.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 11:12pm | |||||
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 7:58am | |||||
Thanks Brass.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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ohFFsake
Far too distracted from work Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 9:54am | |||||
I still have the issue that this seems fundamentally unfair, for a reason I touched on in an earlier post. The RC or a safety boat crew "may" see something another boat may not see, but that's not their primary duty - it's just something they may happen to do during a quiet moment. They both have clearly defined roles, and it is reasonable to assume that most of the time they will be busy performing those duties and not observing the conduct of the boats racing. So boat A touches the mark and is penalised, but boats B and C get away with it as the RO was busy doing his primary job. A jury boat is different - they have no other purpose and can devote their full attention to being as fair and even handed as possible. And that's before we even consider the detrimental effect of safety crews becoming pre-occupied with initiating protests and visiting "miscreants" when they really ought to be keeping watch for sailors requiring assistance...?
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 10:31pm | |||||
Various posts by 423zero raise two different issues: Whether sailing racing should be ‘policed’ or ‘controlled’
by race officials; and Whether some practices described by 423zero are good
practices. I’d like to sum up the first issue in this post, then
address the second in another post. Sailing is often proudly said to be a self-policing sport. 43zero has posted
I don’t know whether this will convince 423zero, who seems
determined not to be convinced, but I’ll have a go. I have pointed out that:
I just find the notion of ‘policing’ the game I love by
officials repugnant, It is not necessary
for the game to be played for it to be ‘controlled’ by officials. That’s how it’s designed. Admittedly, this whole issue arose in the context of exceptional measures that might be taken in response to observed significant disregard of the rules by groups of competitors. It may be that an organising authority or race committee might decide that intervention by race officials was necessary and justified. This might include the race committee exercising its power to protest competitors somewhat more widely than just for blatant breaches affecting fairness. I don’t think this extends to:
In fairness, 423zero has also said
I would certainly agree that a balanced and tailored response
to rules non-compliance is sensible, and very much agree that it should be reduced
when the problem is solved. |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 11:11pm | |||||
423zero has described, in various posts, actions he or she
takes to promote rules observance when acting as a race officer. At first blush these look like pretty
authoritarian and intrusive practices.
It’s not quite clear what is meant by ‘I will call them on it’. If
this means nothing more than that a race official will tell a boat that the
race committee intends to protest the boat, this is unexceptionable: that’s what the race committee is entitled to
do in accordance with rule 60.2. But 423zero goes on to say I will instruct safety boat to go and inform culprit they have been
protested, would they at their earliest opportunity do their turns, if they
dispute this it will have to go to a protest hearing. As described, there is necessarily some delay between the
race officer instructing the safety boat and the invitation ‘at their earliest
opportunity do their turns’. As a result of this delay, any turns taken by a boat will not be a turns penalty taken
in accordance with rule 44.2, which requires the penalty to be taken ‘as soon
after the incident as possible’. So the race officer is actually ‘plea-bargaining’ with the
competitor (in the middle of the race), offering not to withhold a protest if
the competitor takes turns that do not comply with rule 44.2. Race officers have no business:
423zero later said
This may be so, but it is quite inconsistent with what was
described previously. And I might point out that the penalty for touching a mark
is a one turn penalty, not ‘turns’, and a turns penalty is not applicable for a
breach of rule 28. 423zero has also posted about the process
As others have pointed out, it is no part of the race
committee’s role to adjudicate protests.
That is the job of an independent protest committee. This is pretty outrageous.
People need to read Part 5 a bit more carefully. |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 24 Oct 17 at 11:17pm | |||||
Sorry, that's nothing like an arbitration. In an arbitration, each side tells their story, then the arbitrator expresses an opinion about whether a boat broke a rule. Having a race officer deciding whether a boat broke a rule without hearing anything from either party is arbitrary but not arbitration.
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423zero
Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3406 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 25 Oct 17 at 7:39am | |||||
Nice breakdown, should add, I have only informed racers about touching marks and wrong course.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 Oct 17 at 8:50am | |||||
One last issue that I think deserves tidying up. Other posters have picked up on the possible unfairness of this. In the normal case, where the OA/race committee has NOT decided that race committee actin is necessary to improve rules observance I think this lack of consistency and comprehensiveness is a good reason for the race committee to avoid protesting boats for on-water breaches. Exceptions may be where a blatant breach occurs 'right under the nose' of the race committee (except, of course where the breach is clearly seen by another competitor who chooses not to protest, in which case the race committee is well advised to 'leave the racing to the racers'). OTOH, if the OA/race committee HAS decided that race committee actin by protesting boats or otherwise is appropriate to deal with problems of rules non-compliance, one would like to think that the potential inconsistency in observing some, but not other breaches will have been considered by the OA/race committee in reaching this decision. The problem will, to some extent, be ameliorated by instructions given to race committee officials to be observant for rules breaches, which may be expected to make the coverage at least somewhat more comprehensive. On balance, if there is a deliberate by the OA/race committee to address rules compliance by instruction race officials to protest boat for breaking rules on the water, it may well be considered that any unfairness arising from inconsistency and lack of coverage is balanced up by the need to address the rules non-compliance problem.
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