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A Phantom experience |
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turnturtle
Really should get out more Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
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Topic: A Phantom experience Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 9:48am |
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use a furball mast....
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jeffers
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 9:22am | ||
It will affect the mast, there will be a sideways, rearwards and downwards pull from the trap wire which affect how the mast will respond and will probably affect mast bend as well. You could counteract that by having a stiffer mast of course but then you might need a different cut of sail...
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 2:20pm | ||
I'm intrigued now, my logic is, currently big bloke sat on side say 100 kgs and it's what 60:40 i.e 60kgs can be hanging out the side with 40 left 'in' the boat and if he's tall and agile the 60kg could be projected out almost as far as 60 of my kilos if I were trapezing. So what is the difference? If the trap lines take off from the point on the mast where the stays are currently that shouldn't change anything, if I'm standing about where big bloke is hiking? I don't get where the short bow and distance between the mast and cnetre board pivot make a distance, been thinking about it almost since you first posted it, am perplexed and now I need to know, it's bugging me. |
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Tyler
Newbie Joined: 26 Jul 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 12:08pm | ||
Trapezes have been tried in Phantoms in the past, it did not work out too well, mainly I believe due to the short bow and distance between mast and centre board pivot.
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 Aug 17 at 2:33pm | ||
Well if you're me I'd argue there ain't any modern boats for lightweights(that are not smods), Streaker aint modern and that Phantom, come the 'force four barrier' 100 kilos is going to beat 50 kilos all day long particularly once the volume crew weight factor has been effectively eradicated by sheer volume excess which you have in shedloads with the Phantom. So If you were a class wanting to expand why not? It's simply a weight group issue, all off the same line and they have 60 entrys hiked and another 30 wired, what's wrong with that? I'd say you'd expanded your market, re vitalised your class, initally we're all likely to buy some old munter with an alloy stick and trapeze off that for a bit to see how long it lasts, it could be argued that whippy high mod masts are not going to be so effective for trap support so it could lower the tech, then what do I know, I've sailed one once, in a 2-3, every boat is nice in those conditions? Edited by iGRF - 29 Aug 17 at 2:39pm |
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Phil_1193
Groupie Joined: 07 Jan 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 78 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 Aug 17 at 2:02pm | ||
The association bought the mould off Vandercraft back in 2012 iirc when it was already with Ovington and they were already making the hulls for Vandercraft. At the AGM it was voted on and agreed. The association takes a fee from each boat that comes out the mould and this is put to one side to pay for the replacement mould that will be needed at some point. Sails can be made by anyone, out of anything as long as it meets the measurements you could bang one up in your front room if you so desired! Think pretty much every sailmaker has had a go at making them, most, to be fair, currently use a P&B with a smattering of North and HD in the mix The sail of choice varies depending on who at the fornt of the Nationals fleet has some sort of 'affiliation' with a sail maker and can get everyone 'a cracking deal' Why don't people buy it over other options? As you state miscinception its for fatties, it carries weight very well but you dont need to be huge to be competative, in the same way you don't need to be featherlight to get it going in light winds. That and the PY talk, yes its been hammered, yes it is, in my opinion, a bit low, 1008-1012 is where it should be, but even me as an average semi pie eating plenty beer drinking weekend jockey can win handicap races with it at 999, as, for example, this weekend, light winds, East coast tidal estuary and beating Merlin Rockets over the water. And the other misconception is the biggest pockets win, that is not true, any epoxy boat with any carbon rig can win on the day, its all down to the bloke on the wiggle stick! Especially at club level High mod masts do make it 'easier' but its still not a given brand new kit will stick you at the top of the tree every time, time in the boat is the key - btw I won the Creeksea open with a 2 year old sail that isn't even 'cut' for the mast its on, luck had a big part to play as did spending a lot of time in the boat this year and not capsizing!! Edited by Phil_1193 - 29 Aug 17 at 2:03pm |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6648 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 Aug 17 at 1:18pm | ||
I'd say its most likely a bigger deal. Consider. The kite It adds some speed downwind. Not as much as you'd think because if you sail hot angles you go a great deal further, and if you don't sail hot angles the diminishing apparent means diminishing gains. Upwind, you've got a quite probably wet kite and pole adding weight in the end of the boat, a halyard waving in the breeze and quite possibly a bunch of extra ironmongery supporting the mast, so for sure you're going to be slower, and you spend more time going upwind than downwind. The wire. The first and most obvious thing is that the average crew weight plummets. Lets say you end up with a lighter average weight crew for much the same righting moment upwind. Downwind there's a good deal less weight in the boat, so its going to plane earlier and plane faster, and even have a tad less wetter area. So its going to be a bit faster. Upwind. Well, on the one hand you have got extra weight and drag hanging off the mast with the extra wires and the crew further outboard, but on the other hand you've still got the reduced weight, and the power/weight/etc may well get you into territory where the boat will plane upwind. For sure it will go like a lunatic on a shy reach. So with the kite the vmg will be better downwind if the sailor is good enough to get the angles right, but the boat will be slower upwind. With the wire the boat will be faster upwind and down, if maybe not as fast downwind as with a top class sailor. The big thing, though, is that you've taken one of the rare boats that the horizontally challenged can sail competitively, and turned it into yet another boat for lightweights. Is that good for the sport? |
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jeffers
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 Aug 17 at 12:58pm | ||
Because with a Phantom you usually need to stick with the latest developments in sail and mast tech. The latest spec sail, a high modulus carbon stick doesn't come cheap. I'll stick with my 'coffin' even if it means that the only problem with my crap sailing is me.... That said the Phantom is a great boat but the rig/sail arms race aint cheap. |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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Gordon 1430
Far too distracted from work Joined: 27 Jun 17 Location: Lee on Solent Online Status: Offline Posts: 310 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 Aug 17 at 12:38pm | ||
Hi Grf Boon I think has left the marine trade, his Solo mould is now with Ovington. Sails can be made by anyone. As are rudder centreboard and spars. A few years ago we were having 80 plus entries at the Nationals and its looking like we will be back to 65ish this year (59 pre entered). Why people sail other boats I have no idea. In your neck of the woods Downs SC have a few boats. Regards Gordon |
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Gordon
Phantom 1430 |
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 Aug 17 at 12:25pm | ||
Interesting, so the class own the moulds, they presumably sanction builders and sails are they class driven or can anyone build sails and have them measured?
So a bit like the Solo then? So next question why do so many folk still buy those awful coffins when a boat as great as the Phantom is available, is there some ruling that stops pro jocks flogging sails? Is this another case of mis marketing with the Phantom lumbered with the Fatboi niche, just as the Solution is encumbered by it's lightwieght tag, neither of which is totally as true as the folklore suggests? |
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