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    Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 1:16pm
This sunday on the lake which has marks scattered around the periphery, but with a couple midway up so the course involves a beat to two right upwind, then a long end to end run, a beat halfway back up then reach back a bit off to the right then a beat through the start gate and back off up to the two top marks again. Difficult to describe all this but it's a bit puffy and shifty but the downwind leg you have the entire width of the lake to gybe on the shifts or spot gusts and try to use them downwind, so the course is from a buoy right in the top left corner of the lake right down to a buoy in the bottom right hand corner.

Half way back up there is a windward mark I'm approaching on starboard and will have to tack to leave it to Port then set off on a reach at an angle of say 90 degrees to the mean course from top to bottom. Now a Solo is coming downwind on it's way to the bottom mark and as I tack to round the buoy I notice it's suddenly a bit closer than I'd comfortably like to see it, it is aiming right at the mark I'm about to round, I'm ahead, the Solo has to continue further downwind and round the mark previous and then come back up wind, I'm chasing my fellow Solutioneer and he's getting away in the same puff.

Now having tacked and midway through the bear off the Solo hails starboard and is getting very close yet to clear this mark he would have to bear away and to avoid it harden up, quite why he's going anywhere near it is beyond me it's not exactly on the rhumb line to the correct course to the mark he's supposed to be headed but who knows maybe a shift took him that way although I doubt the solo is the sort of boat that benefits from sailing hot angles, but he's there and hailing..

So in dashing across his bows rounding the buoy onto my leg, I am presumably breaking the rules, no collision did occur and a bit of moaning took place on the shore and it is Port starboard since I had to tack onto Port to round my mark, had I hesitated and done nothing it also could have caused a collision so I could call Col regs, could I have hardened back up tacked off, I'm not sure, it was that close...

So what does the team think...

Edited by iGRF - 21 Aug 17 at 1:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 1:43pm
If the Solo changed course, and needed to do so to avoid you any time after you passed head to wind tacking from starboard to port, you did not keep clear and broke either rule 13 or 10.

If the Solo, on a different leg to you, was not sailing her proper course and she 'interfered' with you, and it was reasonably possible for her not to do so, she broke rule 24.2.

If the Solo broke rule 24.2 and in doing so, compelled you to break rule 10 or 13, you are exonerated by rule 64.1( a ).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 17 at 4:44pm
OMG there's a protest room and a half...

My assertion would be that the mark I was rounding was not in anyway part of the course to the mark he was headed, nor would the race team have set it as such and anyone in their right mind knowing windward boats would be rounding it should be giving it a wide berth.

But he's perfectly free presumably to follow downwind shifts and zig zag, so how does 'proper course' stand up to that?

I should have worked out which side of the mark he'd likely pass whilst still on starboard, before I tacked, like all these things nothing done deliberately here, just heat of the race and focus on the mark not anything upwind likely to be coming down to nail you. Do marks that carry zones that apply to those using them also apply to those whilst not on that particular leg, and would be perfectly able to stay well clear? If not, logic would say they should.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 1:00am
Originally posted by iGRF

OMG there's a protest room and a half...

My assertion would be that the mark I was rounding was not in anyway part of the course to the mark he was headed, nor would the race team have set it as such and

anyone in their right mind knowing windward boats would be rounding it should be giving it a wide berth.

Why should they give it a wide berth if the course they would sail to finish as soon as possible (their proper course) would take them near it?

But he's perfectly free presumably to follow downwind shifts and zig zag,

Yes she is.  See above.

 so how does 'proper course' stand up to that?

See above.

I should have worked out which side of the mark he'd likely pass whilst still on starboard, before I tacked, like all these things nothing done deliberately here, just heat of the race and focus on the mark not anything upwind likely to be coming down to nail you.

Not paying attention to other boats around you can have unfortunate consequences.  See recent news about the US Navy.

Do marks that carry zones that apply to those using them also apply to those whilst not on that particular leg,

Well, all marks have a zone around them (Definitions:  zone).

No.  Rule 18 mark-room applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side.

At a mark which one boat is required to leave on a specified side and another boat that is not required to leave the mark on any particular side, rule 18 does not apply.

and would be perfectly able to stay well clear?

Whether or not she is able to, a boat is only required to keep clear if she is a give way boat under one of rules 10 (port/starboard), 11 (windward/leeward), 12 (clear ahead/astern), 13 (while tacking), or 22(starting, penalties, backing).

If not, logic would say they should.

I disagree.  Logic says a boat can sail wherever she chooses unless the rules say otherwise.

You have got all the protection you deserve from rule 24.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Brass


I disagree.  Logic says a boat can sail wherever she chooses unless the rules say otherwise.
You have got all the protection you deserve from rule 24.

[/QUOTE]

Well that doesn't exactly tie in with 'proper course' does it?

Then again what could be described as 'proper course' for say a fleet of 49ers on a dead run, other than deliberately sailing someone below a lay line for advantage.

So I wonder are there definitions to describe 'proper' course when discussing a Solo and would they be different for say a 49er?

Then, throw a mark of the next leg of the course in the mix that is way off to the left of the direct line between windward and leeward and has boats rounding it on a windward leg as the tailenders are still going downwind from a point some way above. Is there a proper course defined that is suitable for all? Just asking at this point.


Edited by iGRF - 22 Aug 17 at 12:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 1:16pm
There is no single proper course, nor should there be. And if a boat goes wandering round the ocean at random - perhaps making a mistake and sailing to the wrong mark - then the best course from that wrong point to the next mark becomes a proper course, even though its nothing like the best course for her to have sailed overall. I'm not quite sure how precisely this ties up with 24 though.

There are some hypotheticals for RRS 24 in case 126, but they are all concerned with one boat luffing another, not two boats whose paths happen to cross.

Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper courses (Case 14).

There is also no rule that requires a boat to sail a proper course (Case 9).

A boat’s proper course at any moment depends on the existing conditions.
Some of those conditions are the wind strength and direction, the pattern of
gusts and lulls in the wind, the waves, the current, and the physical
characteristics of the boat’s hull and equipment, including the sails she is
using. (Case 134)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by JimC

There is no single proper course, nor should there be. And if a boat goes wandering round the ocean at random


Well that's not my interpretation as far as I can recall the proper course is to do with finishing the race at the earliest opportunity. i.e. not deviating for 'random' reasons, like deliberately attempting a diversion to thwart a competitor with a needless starboard call, or luffing them over the horizon - I could be wrong of course, maybe I'll look it up and refresh my memory.

Edited by iGRF - 22 Aug 17 at 1:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Brass


I disagree.  Logic says a boat can sail wherever she chooses unless the rules say otherwise.
You have got all the protection you deserve from rule 24.


Well that doesn't exactly tie in with 'proper course' does it? 

Please open the rule book and read the Definition of proper course and rule 24.

Rule 24.2 is all about proper course.

Then again what could be described as 'proper course' for say a fleet of 49ers on a dead run, other than deliberately sailing someone below a lay line for advantage.

49ers fall over if they try to sail on a dead run.

There are two possible courses for a 49er on a dead downwind leg:  port gybe or starboard gybe.

To determine which one is the proper course for a particular boat, you have to find out why that is the course the the skipper 'would' sail.

So I wonder are there definitions to describe 'proper' course when discussing a Solo and would they be different for say a 49er? 

Almost certainly different.

A boat's proper course depends, among the other things that JimC has helpfully listed, on the characteristics of the boat.

Then, throw a mark of the next leg of the course in the mix that is way off to the left of the direct line between windward and leeward and has boats rounding it on a windward leg as the tailenders are still going downwind from a point some way above.

Is there a proper course defined that is suitable for all? Just asking at this point. 

Proper course for each boat is what the skipper, if asked, can justify.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 2:55pm
well lets take an example. Supposing boat A has luffed boat B into the next county, and is 100 yards upwind of the next mark, but the overlap got broken and made again and now boat A may not sail above her proper course. Is her proper course a line from where she is now to the next mark, or is it a line somewhere 100 yards downwind?
Proper Course
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

I'm confident that means the course the boat would sail to finish as soon as possible *from where she is now*, otherwise you get the nonsense in my example above, but there is a small question mark in my mind as regards RRS24.

I think though I were on a PC, and found that the boat being protested had carefully sailed herself into a position where she could impede a boat on another leg without diverting from what was now a proper course I'd vote to DSQ then under RRS24/RRS2 and rely on the Appeals folk to correct the decision if it was wrong. In your case though it doesn't sound as if the other boat was trying to slow you up, just that they didn't want you slowing them up.

Edited by JimC - 22 Aug 17 at 2:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 17 at 3:13pm
More like they were in abject terror at the gust and didn't want to be where they were anyway.

It's always been an ambiguous term, the proper course I might take will be different to others or I wouldn't win or lose would I? If we all sailed the 'poper course' according to that term of reference we'd all arrive at the finish line together.

Edited by iGRF - 22 Aug 17 at 3:16pm
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