New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Requesting Redress
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Requesting Redress

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
ClubRacer View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 26 Sep 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Requesting Redress
    Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 8:26pm
I had a situation today where I could have requested redress as they got the p flag stuck to the top of the mast when in sequence and did the start anyway, meaning I missed the start by a good 30 seconds as I was waiting for the P to come down to sync my watch.

I ended up finishing  in a good position in the race and doubt very much I'l top that result in the rest of the series and decided not to have protested 

I was the only boat effected by the stuck p flag so I would presume if I had won the protest I would have been given average score for the series in which I would be given a worse result than I actually got

My question is if I had won the redress would my score be removed and given a worse average score and what else is there they could offer me from the redress which would actually have benefited me (I would presume only to abandon the race but would they do that for just a single boat) 

Bare in mind this is just a club race 


Edited by ClubRacer - 08 Jul 17 at 8:30pm
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5412
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 8:53pm
64.2 Decisions on Redress
When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress
under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all
boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to
adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing
times of boats, to abandon the race, to let the results stand or to make
some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable
results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before
abandoning the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from
appropriate sources.

The PC has a pretty free hand to do whatever they consider is fairest for everyone. That includes giving a boat any point score they think is appropriate, but also includes leaving the results unchanged.

Edited by JimC - 08 Jul 17 at 8:54pm
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7643
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:22pm
In club racing, the hoot is far more likely to be accurate than the flag, whatever the rules say, especially if the race box is short staffed. I tend to go by what the RO means to do, rather than by what actually is done, and generally it works out OK.
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 803
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

I had a situation today where I could have requested redress as they got the p flag stuck to the top of the mast when in sequence and did the start anyway, meaning I missed the start by a good 30 seconds as I was waiting for the P to come down to sync my watch.

Depending on the state of the protest committee's digestion on any one day, you might be lucky to get anything out of that one:  you had two opportunities to set your watch:  the warning signal and the hoist of the preparatory signal.  What were you doing in the final minute futzing around with your watch? <sarcy rhetorical question off>.

I ended up finishing  in a good position in the race and doubt very much I'l top that result in the rest of the series and decided not to have protested 

I was the only boat effected by the stuck p flag so I would presume if I had won the protest I would have been given average score for the series in which I would be given a worse result than I actually got

As JimC has explained, average points is not automatic.

My question is if I had won the redress would my score be removed and given a worse average score and what else is there they could offer me from the redress which would actually have benefited me (I would presume only to abandon the race but would they do that for just a single boat)

For the protest committee to conclude you are entitled to redress they have to conclude (rule 62.1):
  • There was an improper action or omission by the race committee,
  • that caused your score or place to be made worse
  • through no fault of your own.
Once they've turned their minds to the worsening of your score, and hopefully, by how much, they should be unlikely to give you 'redress' that made your score worse still.

But as JimC sometimes says, there's no accounting for what race officials might do.

Bare in mind this is just a club race 
Back to Top
ClubRacer View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 26 Sep 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 5:19pm
Depending on the state of the protest committee's digestion on any one day, you might be lucky to get anything out of that one:  you had two opportunities to set your watch:  the warning signal and the hoist of the preparatory signal.  What were you doing in the final minute futzing around with your watch? <sarcy rhetorical question off>.
 
Rule 26 states;

26.
 STARTING RACES
 Races shall be started by using the following signals. Times shall be taken from the visual signals; the absence of a sound signal shall be disregarded.

1 Preparatory flag removed One long One minute



lack of prep flag down is a direct breach of rule 26. Wouldn't this be clear cut in a protest hearing?
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5412
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Wouldn't this be clear cut in a protest hearing?

Oh it would be clear cut enough that the RC made an error. But to get redress you have to convince the PC that not only did the RC make a mistake, but also that you were disadvantaged through no fault of your own. They might well conclude that if you'd been paying attention to *all* the signals you'd have known what was going on, especially as everyone else managed to start OK.
Back to Top
GML View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 24 Jul 11
Online Status: Online
Posts: 70
Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

My question is if I had won the redress would my score be removed and given a worse average score and what else is there they could offer me from the redress which would actually have benefited me (I would presume only to abandon the race but would they do that for just a single boat)

Best practice when giving average points as redress to a boat that has finished a race is for the protest committee to say something like "Average points in accordance with A10(a) but not worse than X points" where X is the number of points you got for your actual finishing position in the race.
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 803
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 3:08am
Originally posted by GML

Originally posted by ClubRacer

My question is if I had won the redress would my score be removed and given a worse average score and what else is there they could offer me from the redress which would actually have benefited me (I would presume only to abandon the race but would they do that for just a single boat)

Best practice when giving average points as redress to a boat that has finished a race is for the protest committee to say something like "Average points in accordance with A10(a) but not worse than X points" where X is the number of points you got for your actual finishing position in the race.

Would you care to cite some authoritative document?
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2643
Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 9:47am
Personally if you missed the 2 previous signals then the 'no fault of your own' bit falls over. Were I on the PC I would be asking that question of you.

Mistakes happen, we all know what the rules say and perhaps the RO should have abandoned the sequence but in a club race was it necessary?
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 803
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 17 at 10:22am
Originally posted by jeffers

Personally if you missed the 2 previous signals then the 'no fault of your own' bit falls over. Were I on the PC I would be asking that question of you.

Mistakes happen, we all know what the rules say and perhaps the RO should have abandoned the sequence but in a club race was it necessary?
Yes it was.

AP is the race officers' friend, and ever RO should be able to run an AP sequence smoothly and quickly.

There's no excuse for letting a clearly improper starting sequence ride.

If only to avoid the problem with fault of boat's own.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz