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Overtaking Boat Relevancy ?

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sargesail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by sargesail

Doesn't sound like it's the case here....but 'overtaking boat keep clear' said to leeward ROW by keep clear windward is about the most frequent bit of intimidation / bullying / cheating I reckon I hear on the Race Course.  Had it yacht racing a couple of weeks ago.....
Strongly disagree.

It's wrong, but it's most likely an indication of ignorance, misunderstanding or confusion about the rules.

Typically, even of beginners do read rule 12, they do so superfically, and say to themselves, 'oh, it's just the same as IRPCAS overtaking boat keep clear'.

And how can a grown man in a 30 foot yacht bully another grown man in another 30 foot yacht?

And ignorance or misunderstanding of the rules isn't anywhere near cheating.

Around the Solent it is commonly heard from people who have been racing for many years.
Last time it really riled me it was from somebody who'd won a race at a Nationals that year.
Definitely a low form of cheating in some cases.

Shout protest and luff hard.

We should compare notes....it was a National Champion yacht that said it to me....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 7:52am
I wonder what the response would be if one hailed back "I didn't know we were racing under COLREGS"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 9:06am
I have had this as the windward boat myself.
Leaving the windward mark with a sym. kite we had a quick hoist and set and got away clean, an asy who rounded inside us lost initial height on their hoist and then came up under us shouting we were in his way. We were close but never came near enough for bad seamanship or physically impeded him but he was getting in a right stew as his kite kept collapsing (it was pretty windy) as he entered out dirty air. My attitude was you put yourself in stupid place you sort it out. He dropped behind and we carried on (didn't notice if he ever came past, don't think so).
Was I wrong? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 9:35am
Assuming a bear away onto a reach? I think, if you were windward boat, you were in the wrong and should have kept clear regardless of where he chose to sail. Rule 11. He did not gain an overlap from clear astern so R17 does not apply and even if it did his proper course with an assy kite is a broad reach or higher so he is entitled to sail you up as high as he needs to to get the assy working.

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 Sep 17 at 9:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 9:51am
Interesting Sam. He had plenty of clear water, are you really saying I should have given him clear air as well?
Off to work now, look fwd to reading this eve.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 10:26am
No, of course not, there is no right to clear air. But, you were keep clear boat and he was entitled to sail pretty much where he wanted and you must keep clear and not impede him. The way it panned out it may well have been you in the bad place as he could have sailed you halfway across the channel if he so desired. The problem with sims and assys racing the same course is that the assy's 'proper course' may well be much higher than the sim's. We get the same thing on our lake, if I end up to windward of a 400 on a deep reach in the Blaze he will simply sail me off the lake while he gets his apparent wind working.......

BTW, I'm guessing your are sailing keelboats not dinghies?


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 Sep 17 at 10:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 11:28am
The way I read this, if L was originally inside (and therefore W), the overlap must have been broken on the exit from the mark. Therefore I assume the new overlap was established within 2 boat lengths to leeward and therefore L can't force W up? DD made a better mark rounding & hoist. Should he be penalised for that?
(NB. I don't know the rules in enough detail to quote numbers & don't have the time to go looking right now - sorry.)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 1:23pm
It was a windward mark so most likely a bear away (no mention of a tack or gybe) in which case W/L won't change. Even if the overlap was broken and re-established L can still sail his proper course which for an assy will often/usually be higher than a sim kite boat. DD made a rounding into a windward position and should expect to have to keep clear of the inside/leward boat. That's my reading of the situation FWIW, if Brass or any of the rules experts are around maybe they can clarify?

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 Sep 17 at 1:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

No, of course not, there is no right to clear air.

Guys, your are making life difficult for yourselves by inventing terms that are not in the rules.

Quite right, the requirement to keep clear does not include a requirement to provide undisturbed air.

Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.

But a requirement can exist under rule 24, although not applicable here.

But, you were keep clear boat and he was entitled to sail pretty much where he wanted

Yes

and you must keep clear

Yes

and not impede him.

No, keep clear means keep clear, no more, no less.

The way it panned out it may well have been you in the bad place as he could have sailed you halfway across the channel if he so desired.

But, seemingly, on DD's description, L was unable to sail high and fast in W's lee and (to depart from the language of the rules) 'couldn't get to him', whether because of poor sailing,or different types of boat, or some other reason.

The problem with sims and assys racing the same course is that the assy's 'proper course' may well be much higher than the sim's

Yup.

We get the same thing on our lake, if I end up to windward of a 400 on a deep reach in the Blaze he will simply sail me off the lake while he gets his apparent wind working.......

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

It was a windward mark so most likely a bear away (no mention of a tack or gybe) in which case W/L won't change.

and, BTW, rule 17 on/off won't change:  it will continue as it was when the boats first became overlapped.

Even if the overlap was broken and re-established L can still sail his proper course which for an assy will often/usually be higher than a sim kite boat.

Yes

 DD made a rounding into a windward position and should expect to have to keep clear of the inside/leward boat.

Yes, but as it proved, this doesn't usually prove too difficult.

That's my reading of the situation FWIW, if Brass or any of the rules experts are around maybe they can clarify?

Originally posted by Do Different

Right oh, on mobile so forgive any typos.

Keelboats? Nah no way, dinghies. Both trapeze boats reaching to a distant gybe mark on a traditional triangle course.

I accept that Asy. had luffing rights but the thing which was making him as mad as badger was that he couldn't get close enough through my dirty air to exercise them. Hence my assertion that even though he had ROW he was the one in the bad place and I was under no obligation to bail him out.

Yup. but I still don't understand why L couldn't have eased down a bit, separated, settled and built some speed and apparent and then given you stick.


Edited by Brass - 20 Sep 17 at 3:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 3:39pm
Right oh, on mobile so forgive any typos.

Keelboats? Nah no way, dinghies. Both trapeze boats reaching to a distant gybe mark on a traditional triangle course.

I accept that Asy. had luffing rights but the thing which was making him as mad as badger was that he couldn't get close enough through my dirty air to exercise them. Hence my assertion that even though he had ROW he was the one in the bad place and I was under no obligation to bail him out.




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