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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Rupert

In effect, overtaking boat keep clear has been subsumed into other rules,


Rupert, I don't think its helpful to say that. There is nothing resembling an overtaking boat keeps clear rule in the RRS, and when you consider situations like two boats alongside alternately speeding up and slowing down on waves, its fairly clear that there cannot be one. A boat to leeward has right of way, no matter how it comes to be there, even though in some circumstances there are restrictions on where it can sail. The whole thread demonstrates the problems that arise when people have concepts in their head that are entirely absent from RRS.


Maybe I didn't word it quite right, the overtaking boat rule would clash with other rules, but as overtaking boat, you still have an obligation which is spelt out under different rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed


Originally posted by Rupert

If you establish an overlap to leeward from astern within 2 boat lengths, you cannot sail above your proper course.
Not quite accurate: 17 states: 
 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail
above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and
overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
 
If the gap opens to more than 2bl, leeward can then luff above her (leeward's) proper course. 
Originally posted by Rupert

You are welcome to sail below it. The other boat cannot sail below her proper course, but can sail above.
Again, not quite, I'm afraid. The old 17.2 (Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she gybes.) was removed from the rules in 2009. 
Assuming boats on the same tack: 
Now, before the boats are overlapped, RRS 12 (clear ahead/clear astern) applies. 
When the boats become overlapped, 15 applies. 
Once the overlap is established, it's RRS 11 and 16.1


So in the fist instance, a gap of more than 2 boat lengths has opened up, so we are back to square one. For the second, I've not got a rule book handy, so quoting the numbers isn't helping, but I'm pretty sure if I am being overtaken to leeward and bear away into the boat below, I'm in the wrong, but I can head up as far as I like.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by Rupert

but as overtaking boat, you still have an obligation which is spelt out under different rules.

No... that's a terrible way to think. An overlapped leeward boat has right of way whether its overtaking, being overtaken just sailing alongside or what.

Its just that if the overlap is established from astern and within two boats lengths there is one restriction in what the ROW boat can do. If the overlap is established from leeward, then no matter what the relative speeds of the boats, then that restriction doesn't exist.

So if a boat is overtaking from well to leeward on a converging course there are no restrictions on its course.

You can always look up the rules on line, find them from http://www.sailing.org/documents/racing-rules.php

Edited by JimC - 08 Jul 17 at 11:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 17 at 11:32pm
Doesn't sound like it's the case here....but 'overtaking boat keep clear' said to leeward ROW by keep clear windward is about the most frequent bit of intimidation / bullying / cheating I reckon I hear on the Race Course.  Had it yacht racing a couple of weeks ago.....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by sargesail

Doesn't sound like it's the case here....but 'overtaking boat keep clear' said to leeward ROW by keep clear windward is about the most frequent bit of intimidation / bullying / cheating I reckon I hear on the Race Course.  Had it yacht racing a couple of weeks ago.....
Strongly disagree.

It's wrong, but it's most likely an indication of ignorance, misunderstanding or confusion about the rules.

Typically, even of beginners do read rule 12, they do so superfically, and say to themselves, 'oh, it's just the same as IRPCAS overtaking boat keep clear'.

And how can a grown man in a 30 foot yacht bully another grown man in another 30 foot yacht?

And ignorance or misunderstanding of the rules isn't anywhere near cheating.


Edited by Brass - 10 Jul 17 at 3:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 17 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by Rupert

I've not got a rule book handy, so quoting the numbers isn't helping, but I'm pretty sure if I am being overtaken to leeward and bear away into the boat below, I'm in the wrong, but I can head up as far as I like.

A windward boat can bear away as much as she likes provided that she keeps clear of the leeward boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 17 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by sargesail

Doesn't sound like it's the case here....but 'overtaking boat keep clear' said to leeward ROW by keep clear windward is about the most frequent bit of intimidation / bullying / cheating I reckon I hear on the Race Course.  Had it yacht racing a couple of weeks ago.....
Strongly disagree.

It's wrong, but it's most likely an indication of ignorance, misunderstanding or confusion about the rules.

Typically, even of beginners do read rule 12, they do so superfically, and say to themselves, 'oh, it's just the same as IRPCAS overtaking boat keep clear'.

And how can a grown man in a 30 foot yacht bully another grown man in another 30 foot yacht?

And ignorance or misunderstanding of the rules isn't anywhere near cheating.


Around the Solent it is commonly heard from people who have been racing for many years.
Last time it really riled me it was from somebody who'd won a race at a Nationals that year.
Definitely a low form of cheating in some cases.

Shout protest and luff hard.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 12:59pm
I find it amazing how many people still think 'overtaking boat keeps clear' is a racing rule. It must be well over 30 years or indeed 50 years since it was in the rules, yet it keeps popping up every now and again (along with mast abeam tbh)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by KazRob

It must be well over 30 years or indeed 50 years since it was in the rules,

I can't find any mention of overtaking in an electronic copy I have of a 1944 pamphlet with the Vanderbilt rules in, so I suspect its a lot longer than that. The only mention of overtaking I've ever seen* is in a copy of the 1910 Royal Canoe club racing rules, but its hard to imagine there's anyone alive who raced under those rules.

*I expect there are others of course, just what I've seen.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 17 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by KazRob

It must be well over 30 years or indeed 50 years since it was in the rules,

I can't find any mention of overtaking in an electronic copy I have of a 1944 pamphlet with the Vanderbilt rules in, so I suspect its a lot longer than that. The only mention of overtaking I've ever seen* is in a copy of the 1910 Royal Canoe club racing rules, but its hard to imagine there's anyone alive who raced under those rules.

*I expect there are others of course, just what I've seen.
It's used in my copy of the 1947 RYA/IYRU rules, but once the term is used, it takes two pages of conditions to make it work for racing.
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