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Taking penalties

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mozzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 11:34am
I agree, I wouldn't normally dial a boat down. But if we were racing for a series and I didn't need to beat them, but just for them to lose a few places I might. Although, hunting a boat on another leg would be against 24.2. 

It's a link to a submission by the Netherlands and Italian sailing federations for the deletion of rule 16.2 altogether. 
Try pasting this link: http://www.worldsailingywc.org/tools/documents/sp_CO_07a-%5B3206%5D.pdf

It just provides a bit of the reasoning for the change in rule and also describes the rounding of marks which I was talking about. I lost a protest once on a port layline boat who I bore away into. He had plenty of time to see me bearing away and avoid, but it hinged on the fact I was changing my course and if I didn't change my course he would of passed clear ahead. Since then I have always been weary of bearing away too early, and have delayed pulling the kite in some case until I am clear of port tackers. 

So, here's a question for you, if you finished your penalty gybing from port to starboard, would dialling up on a port boat be giving them room to keep clear (16.1)? 

Anyway, I've learnt something, so thanks. I'd tracked all the changes to room at marks and tacking in the zone etc, but was completely unaware of this change. Makes quite a difference to how I approach mark exits in a fleet. 


Edited by mozzy - 10 Oct 17 at 11:45am
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 11:55am
Originally posted by mozzy

I agree, I wouldn't normally dial a boat down. But if we were racing for a series and I didn't need to beat them, but just for them to lose a few places I might. Although, hunting a boat on another leg would be against 24.2. 

Yup.

It's a link to a submission by the Netherlands and Italian sailing federations for the deletion of rule 16.2 altogether. 
Try pasting this link: http://www.worldsailingywc.org/tools/documents/sp_CO_07a-%5B3206%5D.pdf

Thank you.

But can you tell me what the domain is and how you found the link?

It just provides a bit of the reasoning for the change in rule and also describes the rounding of marks which I was talking about. I lost a protest once on a port layline boat who I bore away into. He had plenty of time to see me bearing away and avoid, but it hinged on the fact I was changing my course and if I didn't change my course he would of passed clear ahead. Since then I have always been weary of bearing away too early, and have delayed pulling the kite in some case until I am clear of port tackers. 

So, here's a question for you, if you finished your penalty gybing from port to starboard, would dialling up on a port boat be giving them room to keep clear (16.1)? 

It will always depend on distances, speeds and characteristics of boats.

If the right of way boat does not give the other boat the space she needs, acting promptly and in a seamanlike way, the right of way boat has not given room to keep clear and breaks rule 16.1.  If it was possible for the give way boat, acting promptly and in a seamanlike way to keep clear, then the right of way boat does not break rule16.1.

Anyway, I've learnt something, so thanks. I'd tracked all the changes to room at marks and tacking in the zone etc, but was completely unaware of this change. Makes quite a difference to how I approach mark exits in a fleet. 

Sounds like you've had 13 bad years <g>.


Edited by Brass - 10 Oct 17 at 12:17pm
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mozzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 12:05pm
I found the link by googling "rule 16.2 changes sailing" and it came up as the fourth hit through a ISAF youth sailing worlds link. 

Turns are pretty tight in the 200 and happens very quickly. So maybe my issue is I can't imagine a situation where such sudden dialling up wouldn't put a boat in a position of not having room to keep clear 

I'm still a bit unclear about marks. Bearing down on someone after going around a windward mark kinda feels like a dial down. I.e. P was passing astern, but then S bore away 100 degrees and suddenly P isn't even clearing their bow. 

Seen any protests about this since the rule change? 


Edited by mozzy - 10 Oct 17 at 12:18pm
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by mozzy

I found the link by googling "rule 16.2 changes sailing" and it came up as the fourth hit through a ISAF youth sailing worlds link. 

Odd place for a historical ISAF Council Agenda document to be.

Turns are pretty tight in the 200 and happens very quickly. So maybe my issue is I can't imagine a situation where such sudden dialling up wouldn't put a boat in a position of not having room to keep clear 

Well, a typical situation would be where the other boat was just a bit further away.

Port/starboard dial ups aren't usually problematical for rule 16.1:  P usually has all the room in the world to windward to luff and if necessary tack away.

I'm still a bit unclear about marks. Bearing down on someone after going around a windward mark kinda feels like a dial down. I.e. P was passing astern, but then S bore away 100 degrees and suddenly P isn't even clearing their bow. 

Seen any protests about this since the rule change? 

Well, all the protests I've ever heard have been after 2004.

And the 2001-2004 form of rule 16.2 was only in force for that quadrennium.

I think you may be a bit stuck in the 2001-04 paradigm which looked like it absolutely froze the starboard tack boat on her one course.

Rule 16.1, as it now stands is much more flexible:  it ia always going to depend on distances, speeds, courses, wind and wave conditions and boat characteristics (Case 21).

It's not difficult to apply once you get rid of the 'frozen on course' idea:  either a boat, acting promptly and in a seamanlike way (and in compliance with other rules) would have been able to keep clear or she would not.  Generally the key issues are whether there was any obstruction to manoeuvre or whether characteristics or circumstances of the boat limited her manoeuvre.

Prolly the best way to get the hand of it is to read the Cases and RYA Appeals on the definition of Room and rule 16.


Edited by Brass - 10 Oct 17 at 1:44pm
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mozzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 1:57pm
Well, I did all my rule studying when I was sailing toppers and the protest I lost was in toppers (2003). So that tallies. I feel like one of the old blokes who hail 'mast abeam'.

Except in my case I've been meekly waiting to bear away until there is sufficient gap in port takers . A shame, because if there was a hail to go with this action I probably would have been corrected a long time ago. 


Edited by mozzy - 10 Oct 17 at 1:59pm
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