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Taking penalties

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NickM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Taking penalties
    Posted: 18 Jun 17 at 5:32pm
If you have to spin, once you are clear of other boats etc. etc, is it best to start with a tack or gybe? My instinct would be to tack if it was windy but maybe gybe if it was light to work up some momentum.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 17 at 6:33pm
It will depend on a host of factors, including whether you are on a downwind or upwind leg.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 17 at 2:43am
Good article here


But there are a few other key considerations:
  • After an incident, there is often an 'open side' where there is room for you to do your turns, in contrast to a 'closed side' where you are not well clear of other boats:  in this case, it is often best to start your turns by turning into the open space:  for example, suppose you have failed to keep clear of a boat clear ahead, and there are boats to windward but not to leeward, then rolling into a gybe to start your penalty may be the best course.
  • The requirement is two tacks and two gybes, NOT 720 degrees:  if, starting from close hauled, TWA 45 degrees, you tack first, your second gybe will come out, say TWA 175 degrees, that's 130 degrees below your old close hauled course, and you will now have completed your penalty and will have all your rights while you come up to that course, po whatever course you need to sail:  this may be useful in large fleets with lots of boats around (although, it's quite difficult to do the necessary time and space estimate just at the time when you're initially responding to the incident).
  • Depending where you are relative to marks, you may be quite happy to complete your penalty on a different course to the course you were initially sailing:  for example, suppose you have an incident, round about abeam of a windward mark;  if you stand on on your original close hauled course till well clear of other boats, somewhat upwind and outside the mark, then start with a tack, you will complete your penalty on a downwind course, hopefully having left the mark on the required side, and facing on the course to the downwind mark.
Maybe some team racing folk have some useful 'rules of thumb'?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 17 at 8:08pm
Good article. Thanks Brass.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Brass

 
  • The requirement is two tacks and two gybes, NOT 720 degrees:  if, starting from close hauled, TWA 45 degrees, you tack first, your second gybe will come out, say TWA 175 degrees, that's 130 degrees below your old close hauled course, and you will now have completed your penalty and will have all your rights while you come up to that course, po whatever course you need to sail:  this may be useful in large fleets with lots of boats around (although, it's quite difficult to do the necessary time and space estimate just at the time when you're initially responding to the incident).

I get the idea behind this, but in reality you would have to stop heading up to assert those rights(rule 16)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Brass

 
  • The requirement is two tacks and two gybes, NOT 720 degrees:  if, starting from close hauled, TWA 45 degrees, you tack first, your second gybe will come out, say TWA 175 degrees, that's 130 degrees below your old close hauled course, and you will now have completed your penalty and will have all your rights while you come up to that course, po whatever course you need to sail:  this may be useful in large fleets with lots of boats around (although, it's quite difficult to do the necessary time and space estimate just at the time when you're initially responding to the incident).

I get the idea behind this, but in reality you would have to stop heading up to assert those rights(rule 16)
I don't know what you mean by 'assert those rights'.  Either a boat is a right of way boat or it is not.

I think you may not be applying rule 16 correctly.

Rule 16 is a rule of Section B:  it is a limitation on the right of way rules of Section A.  It does NOT displace or render the right of way rules inoperable.

A right of way leeward boat is perfectly entitled to head up, and a windward boat is required to keep clear:  rule 16.1 requires only that, when changing course the leeward boat gives the windward boat room, that is the space, acting promptly and in a seamanlike way to keep clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 11:41pm
I can't imagine a situation when you would need to luff someone as you exited your turns. 

So I only though about port starboard. Being on port you have no right of way.

But, reading the new rules, I think you're right. Previously, when a port boat takes avoiding action, the starboard boat couldn't change course so the port boat had to immediately change theirs. Under the new rules that's only the case when the port boat is ducking. 

RRS 16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."

RRS 16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping
clear by sailing to pass astern of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack
boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack
boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping
clear.

Does that mean when to reaching boats meet on opposite tack, and the port boat sails higher to avid the starboard, the starboard boat can dial them up? 



Edited by mozzy - 09 Oct 17 at 11:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 12:52am
Originally posted by mozzy

I can't imagine a situation when you would need to luff someone as you exited your turns. 

So I only though about port starboard. Being on port you have no right of way.

But, reading the new rules, I think you're right. Previously, when a port boat takes avoiding action, the starboard boat couldn't change course so the port boat had to immediately change theirs. Under the new rules that's only the case when the port boat is ducking. 

RRS 16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal, boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear."

RRS 16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping
clear by sailing to pass astern of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack
boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack
boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping
clear.

Does that mean when to reaching boats meet on opposite tack, and the port boat sails higher to avid the starboard, the starboard boat can dial them up? 
For pete's sake, the unconditional (omitting 'pass astern') version of rule 16.2 was the 2001 version of the rule.  It was amended in 2005.

Yes, S can dial up, but why on earth would she want to?  Bearing in mind that rule 16.2 has been deleted for Match Racing since 2001.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 9:22am
They might want to do it to force a penalty on another boat? 

I've been yielding to boats on port when heading up and bearing away unnecessarily for years (exiting mark roundings)! 

What happens when a port boat tacks to avoid? Can in that moment the starboard boat bear away and call a penalty? Wouldn't that now be the standard defence when port goes for a lee bow tack? 

Seems the rule was changed to stop port tack boats on a start as the starboard boats racking up would be heading up and preventing a port boat who was until they headed up, keeping clear. Which seems like a good change. 


Edited by mozzy - 10 Oct 17 at 9:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 17 at 11:00am
Originally posted by mozzy

They might want to do it to force a penalty on another boat? 

While the rest of the fleet thunders past?

I've been yielding to boats on port when heading up and bearing away unnecessarily for years (exiting mark roundings)! 

What happens when a port boat tacks to avoid? Can in that moment the starboard boat bear away and call a penalty?

Simple rule 16.1:  when the starboard tack boat changes course she must give the port tack/tacking boat room to keep clear.  If S changes course so as to aim at P, then holds steady course, and P, acting promptly and in a seamanlike way can't keep clear then S has not given P room to keep clear.

Wouldn't that now be the standard defence when port goes for a lee bow tack? 


Link not working.  What is that domain anyway?

Seems the rule was changed to stop port tack boats on a start as the starboard boats racking up would be heading up and preventing a port boat who was until they headed up, keeping clear. Which seems like a good change. 
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