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Missed the mark, tacking in the zone

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Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Missed the mark, tacking in the zone
    Posted: 06 Apr 17 at 3:33pm
Looking at the drafting of rule 18, a question occurs.  Am I overthinking this?

Imagine you arrive at a leeward mark on starboard tack with the mark to be left to starboard.  But you make an absolute horlicks of dropping the kite, or broach or something.  Anyway, for whatever reason you don't actually leave it to Starboard, but pass it on the wrong side.  So you round up and tack to get back to the mark.  

18.2 (d) says.
(d) Rules 18.2(b) and (c) cease to apply when the boat entitled to mark-room has been given that mark-room, or if she passes head to wind or leaves the zone.

So 18.a does still apply, so if we're overlapped inside any other boats approaching the mark we're fine with them. 
But we're likely to be going a lot slower than the boats coming down the run, and we've got to do nearly a 180 degree turn to bear away and gybe round the mark.   
Assuming we did our tack to return to the mark within the zone, am I reading this correctly that anyone coming down the run who can get an inside overlap at any point gets mark room from us, providing we are able to give it from the time the overlap is obtained?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 17 at 7:45pm
Yes.

By passing head to wind in the zone you have lost the privilege of 'continuing' mark-room you initially gained under rules 18.2( b ) and 18.2( c )(1).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 17 at 5:46pm
Which is stupid and dangerous.  Not clever drafting!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 17 at 8:59pm
You can write extra complexity into the rules to allow for ever more unlikely situations until the cows come home, but it probably isn't a good idea.

What does it need for this to happen? A boat must miss a leeward mark to the windward side, tack back up to the mark *without leaving the zone*, and then have a boat gain an overlap on the inside at the last second. And even then there's still the protection that if you cannot give room you need not.

Does that justify a couple of new sentences in the rule? And if so how many more equally unlikely situations would need similar treatment?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 17 at 10:01pm
I get your point Jim.  And I'd completely that this was the case in the scenario described by flaming, and had been so since 2005 at least!  So I guess I'm stupid!  But I still think it's got a crazy consequence at an off-wind mark.  The scenarios where this happens are the sort of mess up described by flaming plus capsized or one other I'll come back to.

So what that means is that the boat that has left the mark on the wrong side has to 'rejoin' the traffic from a position where in any normal circumstance it would have mark room because he's on the inside.  But it doesn't!  Bailing out from that position is doubly dodgy because you generally have to heat it up increasing the pace that you are coming together at.

Now the wise boat coming in from clear astern probably gives wary room and goes round the outside....but they don't have to!

And here's the real rub: the other reason this happens is the boat that is forced the wrong side of the mark in order to avoid a collision when actually it had had mark room.  It's then tacking to come back but has lost the mark room on the next not coming through and has the same problems as above.

It absolutely makes sense upwind...and the relevant case law refers to that (I've searched for the case law referred to in the Study version but I can't find it).

Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 17 at 6:38am
But remember its only a problem if the boat coming back stays in the zone. As soon as rejoining nips out of the zone they've got all their rights back. And if things are fraught enough for this to be happening what are the chances that rejoiner will stay in the zone? They've got to get their mojo together, head up, put a tack in, bear away again... Just not going to happen in 3 boat lengths unless its very light air. And the boat coming from astern has no idea whether or not rejoiner managed to stay in the zone, or will be able to give room when the overlap starts, so trying to slam in at the last second is a really high risk manouver liable to send them the wrong side.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 17 at 8:40am
Originally posted by JimC

But remember its only a problem if the boat coming back stays in the zone. As soon as rejoining nips out of the zone they've got all their rights back. And if things are fraught enough for this to be happening what are the chances that rejoiner will stay in the zone? They've got to get their mojo together, head up, put a tack in, bear away again... Just not going to happen in 3 boat lengths unless its very light air. And the boat coming from astern has no idea whether or not rejoiner managed to stay in the zone, or will be able to give room when the overlap starts, so trying to slam in at the last second is a really high risk manouver liable to send them the wrong side.

Well in the 300 I'd expect to stay in the zone in all conditions - because the head up would be very fast!  And same deal if pushed the wrong side in most classes.

I think the point you make about regaining if you leave the zone and reenter as inside overlapped or clear ahead illustrates the flaw in the way this plays out - if you go further from the mark you get more rights than if you stayed close.  Makes no sense.  Imagine that one in the protest room - the boat that missed the mark arguing that he left the zone and the boat behind arguing the opposite!

And then your last sentence also illustrates why it would be better if this weren't the case.  It would always be safer if that boat coming down the run was thinking that the boat on the wrong side of the mark had mark room, whether they had left the zone or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 17 at 9:04am
Originally posted by sargesail

I get your point Jim.  And I'd completely that this was the case in the scenario described by flaming, and had been so since 2005 at least!  So I guess I'm stupid!  But I still think it's got a crazy consequence at an off-wind mark.  The scenarios where this happens are the sort of mess up described by flaming plus capsized or one other I'll come back to.

So what that means is that the boat that has left the mark on the wrong side has to 'rejoin' the traffic from a position where in any normal circumstance it would have mark room because he's on the inside.  But it doesn't!  Bailing out from that position is doubly dodgy because you generally have to heat it up increasing the pace that you are coming together at.

Now the wise boat coming in from clear astern probably gives wary room and goes round the outside....but they don't have to!

And here's the real rub: the other reason this happens is the boat that is forced the wrong side of the mark in order to avoid a collision when actually it had had mark room.  It's then tacking to come back but has lost the mark room on the next not coming through and has the same problems as above.

It absolutely makes sense upwind...and the relevant case law refers to that (I've searched for the case law referred to in the Study version but I can't find it).

I'm not grasping the problem you seem to foresee.

Does this show the scenario you have in mind?



You say

 ... the boat that has left the mark on the wrong side has to 'rejoin' the traffic from a position where in any normal circumstance it would have mark room because he's on the inside.  But it doesn't!

That's not quite right.

As long as the boat that tacked is overlapped inside, she is entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2( a )).

The approaching boats gain no unusual 'rights' unless and until they become overlapped inside.

The only 'right' Y loses is her right to exoneration if she doesn't keep clear of B when obliged to do so.

@2, Y is right of way, leeward boat (rule 11).
@3, Y is right of way, clear ahead boat (rule 12)
@4, Y is right of way starboard tack boat (rule 10).

@4 + delta, B will become overlapped inside, and gain mark-room and exoneration if she fails to keep clear of Y.

If B comes steaming in and Y can't get her stern out of the way, starting no earlier than when the overlap began, then Y, now outside, will have been unable to give mark-room from the time the overlap began and is not required to give it (rule 18.2( f )).

Certainly, once B gets overlapped inside and entitled to mark-room, Y may not be able to come up to course as quickly as she would like, but that's just the disadvantage she earned by muffing her mark rounding in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 17 at 9:29am
And at 4 + Delta Y cannot turn to port to give B mark room because transom will contact, and Y cannot turn to starboard to give B mark room because middle of boat will contact. So Y is not required to give mark room. It seems to me the only time Y is required to give mark room to B is if she has already left enough space between her and the mark that there is room for B to slip through, in which case there isn't a real problem.

So we go back to my point: if we add extra complication in the rules for a situation this unlikely, how many other changes will be needed for similarly unlikely situations, and how ridiculously bloated will the rules then get?

Edited by JimC - 08 Apr 17 at 9:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 17 at 11:05am
Thanks all, good to know my understanding was correct.  

I was prompted to ask this after re-reading 18 brought memories of a Cowes week mark rounding last year.  A competitor right in front of us had missed the mark due to a last minute broach and had rounded right up into a tack then come back to the mark, ably assisted by a strong weather going tide.  That rather left me with an unexpected, and nearly stationary, obstacle right in front of me whilst we were busy dropping our kite, and the split second decision to make as to whether to try and dive up the gap appearing on the inside, or go outside of them.  I went outside, and for a moment absolute chaos reigned as this required a gybe that we weren't prepped for, and for the 2 outside overlapped boats to react similarly.  Quite how there were no collisions is beyond me.  

I think if it happened again I'd be more inclined to go for the gap.  
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