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Dinghys with keels

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ChichesterHiss View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 2:05pm
Blue:
 I think my posts agree with you regarding the FF. I sailed them for a long time dating back to Broxbourne Sailing Club. I posted earlier that a FF is a "keelboat with a keel" and distinctly different from the Viper 640 and K6 category of boat. 
I decided to amend my comment...because:-
1. I wanted to recognize that Uffa Fox was ahead of his time, and in its day the FF was the most dinghy like keel boat around.
2. The FF sailors are very fond of calling the FF a "dinghy with a keel"....just check out the FF website. I understand where they are coming from. It is a very lightweight keel boat, even compared to the SB20.
3. It is still a lovely boat and I have many close friends who sail them.
BUT I agree with you, compared to the modern era of Vipers and K6s and the like.....the FF behaves more like a keelboat.

When I sailed FFs (and Solings, many years ago) I used to say to myself  "Why doesnt someone design a keel boat that really takes off downwind and planes?"  Solings especially were beasts in big breeze going downwind. When I stepped on the Viper .....it was one of those "Ah Ha" moment. Finally!

Where I disagree with you is comparing the SB20 to Viper or K6 category.  The SB 20 is much heavier and pushes a lot more water around when it is sailing.  It feels very different.  Not better or worse, just very different. When it comes to launching on a ramp, the lightness of the Viper made it easy. It wasnt my trailer but they looked as robust as a typical salt water trailer. I cannot speak to the K6 or VX but since they are lighter even than a Viper, I assume they must be equally easy to ramp launch.    

I intend to try a K6 because there are a few around locally. 

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ChichesterHiss View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 2:11pm
70 years ago! (my god), this was as close to a dinghy with a keel as you could get: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/194491/70th-anniversary-Flying-Fifteen-celebrations  
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pompeysailor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pompeysailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 4:02pm
launching at many sailing clubs prevents the many Keelboat/Dinghies with keels from taking off. The reason is launching from a road base - heavy, ruins the bearings and someone always needs waders etc. and also the need for immediate depth close to the shore.
How about a design where the actual bulb can be raised/lowered seperately from the centerboard (which can also be raised/lowered indepndantly from the bulb so allows the boat to be launched from a trolley & sail away from the shore without needing 4/5 ft under you so keel/bulb can be set in place?
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Peter18 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peter18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 5:27pm
The Seascape 18 has a lifting keel which is raised by a permanent winch in the small cabin. The keel retracts fully flush into the hull and can be progressively wound up or down dependant on the depth of water, so ultra easy launching and no need for depth of water close to the shore. Plus the rudders are in cassettes and can be easily raised or lowered.
Also its roller trailer has no brakes (under the weight limit) and has sealed bearings.
The seascape 18 is probably the best option when looking for a dinghy with keel. Check it out at wwwthinkseascape.com
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ChichesterHiss View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 9:54pm
Peter........I totally respect your enthusiasm for your product. But since you posted your ad twice, I just want to point out that its a different animal from the K6, VX and Viper performance category.
 (and I realize there are others like the Open 5.7 and the Aussie T boats but these three are readily available in UK and built in UK) .  These three have low free board and Sail area to weight ratios (SQm*10/ Kilo) of 1.8- 2.1.  They go upwind like a keelboat (caveat I havent sailed all three but looking at pics) and tear downwind like a planing dinghy.
The Seascape to me looks like a keelboat/little yacht that can be launched off a ramp. It looks much more like a smaller version of a J70, SB20 or Melges 20 than the dinghies with keels. It has an SA/Displacement of 1.1  and downwind, the pictures show a lot of water being moved. I think that someone stepping off a J80 might be entertained in terms of performance but someone stepping off a Merlin or a Viper might be disappointed. 
It doesnt mean one is better or worse but different.
I would enjoy trying it. In fact I would definitely come to a "sail off" if someone organized getting all these boats in one place so we could step from one to another.

But yes.....I like the cassette rudder feature.  The bulbs with keel up only add 4 inches to draft, but its the cassette rudder that really enables easy on/off from the ramp.

Pompey......I understand the care-of-trailer argument but not sure I understand the wading argument. I need to wade whatever boat I launch from a ramp whether it is an RS 200 or something else. Is there something Im not thinking of as I try and imagine launching a K6 .  By the way....yes there are plenty of clubs I can think of where keeled dinghies would be non-starters.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 10:49pm
Interesting, I hadn't cottoned that Peter18 was the Seascape 18's principle. I feel slightly less guilty about pointing out that it costs 30,000 (does that include a trailer and other 'optional' bits?) and the 2016 UK Nationals attracted, I think, 5 boats. 

It's a nice looking boat but, as has been said, more on the 'fast cruiser/racer side of the sports boat genre than a big dinghy.

edit :- TBF though, it is pretty light.

Just thinking about this...... So to be classed as a proper 'keeled dinghy' it should be capable of being launched by one man into knee deep water (which should be possible at any dinghy club)? I can't see a problem with a Stratos Keel, Bosun or such like, a boat you would routinely take out of the water at the end of a days sailing but I also see the logic in describing an FF in such a fashion and dry sailing one of those is another ball of wool. When I started this thread I was thinking of how a boat performed/handled but maybe that shouldn't be the defining point. Not that it matters really, these days all the lines are blurred in a way that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 24 Feb 17 at 11:09pm
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by ChichesterHiss

Blue:
Where I disagree with you is comparing the SB20 to Viper or K6 category. 


I'm not certain I did compare the SB20 to the K6. Viper......the question is why it has gained no traction at all in the UK whereas it did in some places elsewhere, notably the USA. I'd argue that the the incumbent presence of the SB20 prevented that. The hopeless marketing was another factor, I made a number of attempts to get a test sail when Rondar had a test boat on the south coast and never got a call back.

The FF sailors are very fond of calling the FF a "dinghy with a keel"....just check out the FF website."


Having owned a FF I know quite a few FF sailors and not a single one has ever said that in my presence!

Is there something Im not thinking of as I try and imagine launching a K6


I've launched one (as crew, not owner) from a ramp and it seemed pretty straightforward. Easier than launching a FF off a lee-shore which can definitely be an acquired skill.


Edited by blueboy - 25 Feb 17 at 12:38pm
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Riv View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 2:55pm
Many years ago I was a member of oxford sc and they used to lifeboat launch Ffs. 

They tied a rope to the trolley so it would'nt end up off the ramp, then jumped in and let it roll. Worked for the lee shore problem.

On another point I remember an Rya coach explaining the difference between keelboats and sports boats. Kbs have a keel that is not normally removed and can be a structural part of the hull. The Ff fits this description even if Uffa did unbolt the keel and stick it in his car boot and car top the hull.
Sb20s and so on have removable keels and therefore are Sports boats, much more dinghies with keels than the Ff

Royal Torbay has a crane and a small fleet of Sb20s and Ffs
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by ChichesterHiss


These classes have really taken off in the USA and Australia.
Half the classes I mentioned in my list above are built in England and yet they are all sold abroad...why havent these classes taken off here?   
  


As an ex sportsboat owner the biggest issue is cost. Small keelboats incur yacht like costs for mooring. For example a 20ft dinghy such as an FD might cost 300 dinghy storage, wherease a 20 foot keelboat will cost 3000 for dry sailing or a marina. In country with less pressure on shore side space I believe the mooring costs are considerably cheaper.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 10:16pm
It's cheaper up North, and somewhere else on here someone said that 20% of marina berths are vacant. But a berth in Glasson Dock is to much use of the racing is in the Solent.....
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