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Dinghys with keels

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 17 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by ColH

Originally posted by blueboy

FF is not a dinghy. It is a keelboat. There are no dinghies with keels. If it has a keel it is a keelboat.



It can plane though - it's a bit odd but a real buzz.
Like the 470 - maligned for being 'old hat', but still very classy, and unrivalled by many of the newer classes despite being decades old....


I thought it was the Topper that was old hat?!
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Leader, Topper 44496, yellow Minisail
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 17 at 10:04pm
Vendee Globe IMOCA 60s can plane, they can certainly travel at well over twice their hull speed and I don't think anybody would argue that there are not keelboats........ They definitely ain't dinghies  Tongue

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 06 Feb 17 at 10:06pm
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zippyRN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 17 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by ColH

Originally posted by blueboy

FF is not a dinghy. It is a keelboat. There are no dinghies with keels. If it has a keel it is a keelboat.



It can plane though - it's a bit odd but a real buzz.
Like the 470 - maligned for being 'old hat', but still very classy, and unrivalled by many of the newer classes despite being decades old....

which is  why  the FF ( and the other small flyingboats) and other similar in conception planing, hiked or trapezed keelboats are viewed as 'dinghies with keels'  - as they are compared to the laedmine era  racing keelboat, ULDB in yachting has  changed that  somewhat.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 17 at 4:31am
As someone who has sailed Flying Fifteens on and off for 30+ years...the FF is not a dinghy with a keel, it is a keelboat with a keel!

The "Dinghy with a Keel" phenomena describes the ultralight sports boats, typically with a skiff shaped hull, bulb keel and low freeboard that plane downhill like a dinghy.
They include the Viper 640, the K6, the VX, the Open 570 (in France), and the Shaw 650 (Australia).

I flew to Bermuda to crew with my brother in the Viper 640 Worlds last November.

In answer to the OP.
Upwind in lighter air, you sail these kinds of boats with a slight amount of heel and then as flat as you can as the breeze picks up.  Yes, you use crew weight up to force 3, but by upper end of force 3/force 4 and above you are fully hiking and using kicker and main sheet to keep the boat flat.
The boats are mildly athletic upwind but surprisingly comfortable, way more comfortable than hiking in many keel boats. In the bigger winds, we sailed upwind cracked off the breeze a bit, dead flat and we were really ripping.
Downwind, it is all about sailing flat.  Not much crew weight involved, its all about angle and staying on the plane .

Two thoughts occurred to me on the way home.
These classes have really taken off in the USA and Australia.
Half the classes I mentioned in my list above are built in England and yet they are all sold abroad...why havent these classes taken off here?   
  
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patj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote patj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 6:50am
Half the classes I mentioned in my list above are built in England and yet they are all sold abroad...why haven't these classes taken off here?

Maybe because the shore handling and launching is more time consuming, awkward and off putting and they are somewhat longer than most dinghy clubs allow?

Edited by patj - 20 Feb 17 at 6:50am
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 7:43am
"why havent these classes taken off here?"

The K6 did, up to a point. It has or certainly had a nationals. In UK conditions you need two large males to hold it down in any kind of breeze, or crew of three but the systems are designed for two.

As for the others, no traction because the SB20 (ex SB3) is the incumbent class in that market space, although numbers are very small compared to its peak. I've sailed them a few times. They are a PITA to launch like a dinghy and yacht-expensive to dry-sail from a marina. The only practical way to launch them is with a crane and not many clubs have that facility. Royal Southern YC is the only club I know of with a crane but it doesn't have that much storage space.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 1:30pm
I want to amend an earlier comment of mine.
Although the FF is fundemental different in several important ways from the Viper640, K6 etc etc , it was way ahead of its time.  
Compared to the keel boats of the era it was and is a dinghy with a keel.
Uffa  Fox  was a genius!

The comment about the SB20 got me thinking. The sail plan of the FF may not look as modern as an SB20 but at 20 feet, the FF is a lot lighter and in some ways more dinghy like than an SB 20.  So I suppose we should credit the FF as the original "dinghy with a keel". 

I hear the purists start muttering "if it's got a keel it isn't a dinghy" .  But there is a category of boat that does not fit it well with either dinghies or keel boats. They are tremendous to sail. They sail in a groove upwind a bit like a keel boat. They plane downwind like a high performance dinghy without the drama. So the category name of "dinghy with a keel" is as good as any.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by blueboy

"why havent these classes taken off here?"

The K6 did, up to a point. It has or certainly had a nationals. In UK conditions you need two large males to hold it down in any kind of breeze, or crew of three but the systems are designed for two.

As for the others, no traction because the SB20 (ex SB3) is the incumbent class in that market space, although numbers are very small compared to its peak. I've sailed them a few times. They are a PITA to launch like a dinghy and yacht-expensive to dry-sail from a marina. The only practical way to launch them is with a crane and not many clubs have that facility. Royal Southern YC is the only club I know of with a crane but it doesn't have that much storage space.

Blue, you are correct. There are (or at least there were) K6s at Hayling Island SC near me and I recall reading they had a decent turn out at their Europeans on Lake Garda. It looks like a nice boat and I should try and get out on one. 
BUT  to put this in perspective, I had just come back from racing with 43 Vipers on one start line on Great Sound , Bermuda.  It was an incredibly good time. I was slightly jealous and I look forward to having somethiing similar in scale here. I accept we will never have Dolphins surfacing by the Committe boat in Chichester Harbour any time soon, but this category of boat would work for a lot of people. 

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blueboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 5:28am
I was seriously considering buying a K6 at one time and sailed one a few times. What finally put me off was the thought that either I needed to find a really large male crew or else sail it three-up, which some do but there isn't really a job for the third person because the boat is laid out for two.

What has killed the sportsboat scene in the UK IMO is that the marinas have continued to ratchet up the dry-sailing cost 5% a year every year regardless of recession or the lack of inflation, and on the whole clubs don't have crane launching. Routinely launching something like an SB20 or a Viper off a road trailer into cold salt water requires a dedication and a willingness to spend time on trailer maintenance which not many people will sustain. Said with feeling as I have done both the launching and the ensuing changing of trailer bearings.

I owned a FF for several seasons. It's a keelboat, a nice sensitive one but still a keelboat, not a "dinghy with a keel". Try pulling one up the beach if you doubt it. Try capsizing one, it's been done but you really have to work at it.


Edited by blueboy - 21 Feb 17 at 5:43am
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Peter18 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peter18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 8:44am
Why not take a look at the Seascape 18. Easy to sail 2 up but room for 4. 500kg all up weight, fully lifting keel by winch inside small cabin. As easy to launch as a dinghy, trailer with no brakes and sealed bearings, carbon rig and spars, square top main, roller jib, asymmetric spinnaker with take down deck shute (dinghy style).
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