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Comparison- Rs400 and 59er experience |
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damp_freddie
Far too distracted from work Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
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Topic: Comparison- Rs400 and 59er experience Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 9:08pm |
This is a little bit of winter time reflection, having had the pleasure of both boat's company under my quarter end The purpose of the thread is to look at this from two perspectives of comparison 1) Design - the end user point of view! 2) deciding to buying a new or used RS400 or 59er I've split it up to avoid the crashes which can happen mid scribble Seeing that the boats are fully developed OD, and on the market (so despite a rumour of 59er getting a trap which I'll come to) this thread is really a 'yarn' about sailing experience rather than talking about what is, could or should be under development- glad to see a Devel class vs OD raging as i write Edited by damp_freddie |
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damp_freddie
Far too distracted from work Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 9:12pm |
Up front I will say that both boats are well produced and I like them.
First impressions. The RS 400 had been eating into other classes like the 505, tasar, Fireball and of course it's ancestor the Merlin Rocket. I reckoned it was about time to get a sail in one, despite the rather hefty new price tag putting me off impulse purchase. Coincidence was that at clubs I was a member at and those I visited, the 400 became THE one design boat above all else. On the water they looked nice - well finished package with a good range of flash colours. Broad too and only seeming a handful in gusty 22 knts plus. But actually handling the boat was a surprise. It was amazingly heavy to lugg around the dinghy park. From then on I felt it was like a small yacht in the way it generally is to sail. Which suited me as I'm one of the very few folk going TO dinghies FROM yachts and sportsboats. Pretty user friendly to crew with most controls being fine but the thwart lead trio all seemed a bit friction bound - or maybe the problem was not enough purchase? Helming, having moved from bigger stuff, was a pleasure because the weather helm tuned in nicely. In it's movement in the water and pinching to depower it felt like a yacht! Edited by damp_freddie |
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damp_freddie
Far too distracted from work Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 9:14pm |
The 59er had been a boat with many rumours as the initial '39er' project name tag.
Having owned a tasar previously and sailed a B14 a couple of times I expect a light boat, but was still amazed. The mast was feather weight and the boat which is a fair old chunk of 4,7 m by 2 m FRP , was actually lighter than a rigged tasar. In the flesh it is more pleasing on the eye than the photos on the web which don't allow your eye to follow it's hull and 'wing' deck flare. It is pretty space age looking- I am still getting used to the almost 'garish' appearance of the 49er. So looks wise it has plus or minus points in comparison to the 400. "eye of beholder" nuff said. Those of you from I14, tasar, B14, RS300 etc etc will be used to a boat which wants to sail and has 'dynamic stability' rather than being particularly stable while sitting still. Treating the boat like a windsurfer coming off the beach was the right thing until the dagger was down- this was the first quibble- damn hard to get the foils down! The boat felt very lightly driven and made very little wake on first sail in a cold 16 - 18knts with some bigger gusts. Edited by damp_freddie |
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damp_freddie
Far too distracted from work Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 9:53pm |
Style of sailing the two
The two boats are very obviously different when you look beyond 'two man, hike out, assymetric' written on the box so to speak. Firstly is the hiking style. Personally I didn't like the straps in the 400 being lead to the centre at a diagonal for the helm. This made it awkward for me to vary my poisition and style of hiking and I was tempted to have them very slack. Crew hiking varies from fairly chilled out straight leg, through 'usual' dinghy hike to full on Soling hike style! The hike style on the 59er is different and has been thought about a lot. It is aimed at being straight leg with a minimum body below gunwhale end result. This allows for fast corrective movements and an allegedly far more ergonomic and fatigue free ride once you get trained to it. No doubt some laser sailors will have something to say For comparision let us take 16knts of breeze so both boats will be planing down wind at a pace and requiring depowering and 'active' helming to keep them on their feet. In the 9er this was the bottom end of my windy day, the other day I did was light stuff below 7.5 knts of wind. The first point kind of preceeds the above line- the 59er will be planing nicely upwind - so in theory it can go as fast as the power you can resist will drive you. In practice you are of course powered for the lulls, and handling the gusts with some degree of inefficiency. In combination with the resistance of hitting waves, things conspire to slow you from theory. But quite likely you will be doing 7 knts or more in the 9er with very little leeway. Edited by damp_freddie |
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damp_freddie
Far too distracted from work Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 9:55pm |
Upwind when the gusts hit, the 400 responds nicely to some helm luffing the boat up for the shift in apparent wind and then a little higher to depower further if needed. When a big gust is spotted main is twisted a little and kicker-cunningham can be applied followed by a concerted big hike out. When you turn the corner in the 400 the hoist is panic free and the LDC boat ploughs a furrow before popping up on the plane and making healthy progress. In this weight of wind the boat probably does around 12 knts and digs a bit of apparent wind. In gusts you need to dump the main in order to steer low. In the Bethwaite-Ovington craft, you are already planing when you get to the windward mark, and the waves disappear ever faster under you before you hoist. Now think about "engage afterburn" and you have an idea that the big kite kicks in like rocket propulsion. An assertive hike and trimm get things settled down followed by a progressive use of apparent wind. The 9er will be doing near wind speed and probably exceed wind speed if you happen upon 18knts of puff. Hence sheet loads are a lot lighter than on the 400. A lot more time is spent keeping the boat under the rig and concentrating on everything being fast and smooth than on the 400 IMExp. As I sat trimming the kite or helming with a relaxed straight leg hike in the 59er I wondered- "this is legal, but is it decent to be doing this performance without twin trapezes and many years of high level experience in 'skiffs'?" Gybing and tacking both boats is usually stress free if you choose your moments and get the main across smoothly without messing up tiller coordination. The 400 does seem to roll a bit more. Hardening up the 400 is staight forward and it can be 'handbrake turned' at the leeward mark- you will only swim in the 59er in this breeze. A smooth graceful harden up is needed- keeping boat on the plane - by using helm followed by sheet followed by helm and so on... to keep the sheet loads low and the boat going fast. Edited by damp_freddie |
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damp_freddie
Far too distracted from work Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 10:14pm |
Upwind the 59er was not remarkable, and that is the very remarkable thing about it.
We had circa 170kg lard and hiking was not extreme. The boat just sits and sails with an armful of main dumped here and there. In the abscence of a race fleet it was positively dull to crew because work is taken away by it having a self tacking jib. Crew main sheeting doesn't seem to work because of the simple coordination of one legnth sheet first then a push on the helm if more depowering is required. If you are caught out the boat will 'stagger' like you see I14s etc, screwing into the wind and making for a full stall. For really big blocks of the puffy stuff, a load more main and a tad of jib can be blown out to ride it low and super fast. There is little weather helm on the 9er but in the 400 there is loads of it there, reassuring the erstwhile yacht helmsman in me. The bowspritted 'Merlin' trucks up wind like it's predecessors. Very satisfying to helm or crew, but you do work for a living. Edited by damp_freddie |
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les5269
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Oct 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1530 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 10:20pm |
Hi Damp-Freddie it must have been quite an experience for you to have to post 6!! posts on your own topic! Maybe we could get others involved
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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!
Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
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Offshoretiger
Posting king Joined: 12 Jan 05 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 179 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 10:54pm |
has he finished yet?
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...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!......
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Bumble
Far too distracted from work Joined: 12 Nov 05 Location: Taiwan Online Status: Offline Posts: 302 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 02 Dec 05 at 8:43am |
Strikes me Damp Freddie is looking for a new way to point out how good he thinks the 59er is. why not start a 'what does anyone think of the 59er thread'.......again.!!!!! |
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damp_freddie
Far too distracted from work Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 02 Dec 05 at 12:56pm |
Continuing a rant for those who are interested over the winter in boat design, perfomance and comparison- not just the skim readers. SO both boats have virtues and are equally user freindly in my experience. Pros and cons.-400 The 400 has a well established fleet, and I remember it exploding in the 90s. It caught excellent sailors from boats like the 505 and fireball as a new fun type of sailing with an 'out of the box' OD package- running costs but no hidden upgrades as with 505 etc (carbon rigs now approved!) At club level it was within reach of the skills of those adults coming out of the RYA schooling yet provided enough challenge for international qauilty sailors to get into the boat. A real strong point was that fleets developed at club level and that the boat was competitive enough on PY for mixed racing. In particular conditions the better 400s pin the L4000s on PY. One attraction which I was told by a former 505 sailor( expert!) was the 'down wind tacking battles which add a tactical element to winward-leewards and the run on any 'round the nav bouys' club runs. A strong class association with manufacturer support has lead to a competitive and stable fleet, and even had the boat used in high level invitationals like the endeavor trophy. |
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